Was pulled on interstate today, armed,Leo cool. - Page 3

Was pulled on interstate today, armed,Leo cool.

This is a discussion on Was pulled on interstate today, armed,Leo cool. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JerryM The second officer asked that I give it to him which my wife did. He removed the ammunition and put them ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post


    The second officer asked that I give it to him which my wife did. He removed the ammunition and put them and the gun back in the pack and over his shoulder.

    He also said that one who had a CHL had been checked out and was obviously not a thug.
    Regards,
    Jerry
    Everytime I hear of this I shake my head.
    He says rightly so that the one that had the CHL had been checked out and was obviously not a thug yet removes the ammunition.
    I see no reason for it as I believe one of the officers could have continued observing the situation whil the other officer returned to his cruiser.
    All of them are on the same side of the law.


    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I hate it when I hear stories about a LEO insisting upon handling, checking and then unloading a firearm carried by someone with a CCW...

    (oh but it's for officer safety...yeah, since I told him about it he has reason to be concerned )
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    He has no reason to be concerned, because he knows that anyone with a license to carry would not shoot him, nor would they have committed a serious crime just prior to this, or at any other time, so he should be all set with the vehicle operator's showing the firearms license.
    No need for the LEO to be worried.
    He just needs to know that you are one of the ones who would not fire at him.
    Once he knows that, the rest is simple.
    So I can definitely see where LEO would be overreacting.
    If I were LEO I would not go further than checking the permit, much less unloading the weapon.
    No need to even see it.

    I was just reading an article about a highway patrolman in the Midwest who found a guy sleeping in his car and just checked him out to see if he was medically okay, saw a weapon, guy produced a license to carry, cop said fine, was then shot four times, three in the chest and once in the head.
    So a lot of officers think officer safety is the most important thing. But the right not to be checked out is really important too.
    So which one is more important? That is for the individual reader to decide.
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  4. #34
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    I have been stopped twice here in Virginia while carrying. Once by VSP the other by County Police. Both times I informed the LEO that I was a permit holder and armed, not required in VA, but old habit from OK where I got my first permit. In neither case did the LEO disarm me. Both times they just told my to keep my hands in full view.

  5. #35
    Member Array whyipackmy45's Avatar
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    I've never been pulled over in Vegas. They hardly ever pull anyone over here.

    I saw a guy driving at least 30mph over the limit on the expressway last week. He went right by the LEO in front of me, and he wasn't pulled over. We were going 10 over the limit and this guy blew by us like we were parked.
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  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    I was just reading an article about a highway patrolman in the Midwest who found a guy sleeping in his car and just checked him out to see if he was medically okay, saw a weapon, guy produced a license to carry, cop said fine, was then shot four times, three in the chest and once in the head.
    So a lot of officers think officer safety is the most important thing. But the right not to be checked out is really important too.
    So which one is more important? That is for the individual reader to decide.
    Got a link to the story?
    Who recounted what happpened? Did the officer not die?
    Was there another officer there that saw this happen?
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    No link. Officer died instantly. I don't know when it happened but it is not new news. No other officers. It was some years ago. And there are numerous other stories like that one. In Georgia, cop walks up, to speeder, the guy, a very young man, pulls gun out and fires, zero warning. Cop has vest on, not a problem. There are scores of these incidents.
    Shows, in my view, that the LEOS right to figure he or she is safe, and this is my view only, is more important, to me personally, than my inconvenience at showing a license to carry, or the SP101 or whatever else.
    There are so many incidents like the one I cited, and not only that but there are a lot of unpublicized close encounters of the firearm kind, and it is a personal thing with me that I feel that the LEO has a right to feel safe. And he or she should be able to have a little edge on the motorist. Does the LEO know motorists he or she stops? I doubt it.
    Unless we can say that folks with firearms licenses never commit crimes and would never kill a cop. If we can say that, then certainly the LEO should walk right up and take those chances.
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  8. #38
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    QUOTE: There are so many incidents like the one I cited, and not only that but there are a lot of unpublicized close encounters of the firearm kind, and it is a personal thing with me that I feel that the LEO has a right to feel safe. And he or she should be able to have a little edge on the motorist. Does the LEO know motorists he or she stops? I doubt it.
    Unless we can say that folks with firearms licenses never commit crimes and would never kill a cop. If we can say that, then certainly the LEO should walk right up and take those chances.
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    I would like to see links or references to these many instances. I feel % wise you as a CCW holder have a better chance of being shot by a jettery or scared LEO then an LEO has of being shot by a person with a CCW during a traffic stop. Especially one who notifies the LEO he has a weapon and licence. If they feel the need to disarm legally licensed CCW holders maybe they should find a new field of work in a less dangerous area of endeavor. There are many LEO's that state they have no problem with armed citizens yet others freak why ?. Are the ones who don't make a big deal less professional and or careful ? or are the ones who disarm everyone more proficient and professional. If it is just a personal choice rather then procedure then personal prejudices arise which leads to a new set of problems and possibilties. Seems it should be addressed on a procedural level within each licensing agency then there would be less bitching all around. If LEO's were held to strick procedures when dealing with CCW stops rather then the broad descretional power they have now people would have less problems when they knew what to expect on all stops. Just my opinion I could be wrong...

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    References are with websites and officer memorial pages. The Officer Down Memorial Page, Inc. is one you could read all day long. Four of them I knew quite well. The fact is that a lot of cops are shot/killed every year.
    As I said, if it could somehow be shown that the motorist NOW stopped by a LEO, not in general but right now at the side of the road, would not kill him or shoot him or commit crimes that he is wanted for, then there would be no problem with the LEO just taking things easy.
    And I know I could be wrong on this too, just that I would hate to find out the hard way. I wish there was some way to tell in advance that a legally licensed firearm possessor just would not do anything wrong.
    I think it runs deeper than this. I think people naturally don't like to be pulled over period, and the firearms thing is a secondary consideration. The main thing is that we just like to truck along and do our own thing and do not like LEOS interfering. Now if someone would step up to the plate and just put it that way, it might be a good thing. Saying that our firearm is more important than officer safety? That is great---if you are not the officer walking up to the car :)
    We have the right to bear arms. No right is unlimited. The right to free speech is not unlimited e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded theater" being the first thing that comes to mind. Every right has a responsibility. Someone once said, and I agree with him. "We demand our rights. Just once I wish we would also demand our responsibilities". So we love having the right to bear arms to much that we are willing to put an officer at risk, in general, instead of our complying.
    We would actually prefer that an officer take risks than say to ourselves, what is it to me if the officer is jumpy and wants to take precautions because of what happens out here all the time.
    This is what I mean. You know that you will not do anything wrong. So you think that the LEO should know that too.(?)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Example: Motorist told LEO he is legally armed. Motorist has warrant. LEO must make the arrest. Now LEO must arrest an armed man. Can LEO assume motorist wants to go on the warrant?
    Example: Motorist told LEO the gun is in the center console. Motorist's passenger has felony warrant or parole violation warrant. Knows where the gun is. Motorist did not even know about passenger's warrant.
    Now what, in both scenarios the LEO has already put his or her mind at ease saying oh these folks are licensed for firearms. No problema.
    I wonder if this has ever come up before. Could it, or would it be impossible to occur?
    If LEO knows you right from the start, fine. Hey, that's old Con43, he is okay. I don't know his passenger but if he is Con43's friend, he's my friend.
    On the streets, LEOS have to think about all the possibilities, not just one or two. Not thinking about everything, is a deadly thing to do.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Unless we can say that folks with firearms licenses never commit crimes and would never kill a cop. If we can say that, then certainly the LEO should walk right up and take those chances.
    dcb, unless we can say that officers NEVER commit crimes and would never kill a cop/citizen...

    It goes both ways. For every story you can site of a permit holder shooting an officer, I can site a dozen of crooked cops shooting a citizen.

    There is a certain level of trust we have in this society. As I walk down the street, I trust that the people walking by me are not going to rob/kill/mug me. But just in case, I carry a firearm.

    I don't speed, I keep my car maintained...I don't expect to ever be in this situation, but on the odd chance that I get pulled over for something...well, I might just be the test case.

    I'll comply, I'll do whatever they say, and when it's over, I will be on the phone with an attorney to sue the crap out of the county for violating my Second Admendment Right.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Maybe you're right. I just thought officer safety was paramount. But that would be if a person was an officer. Otherwise, it would not be paramount.
    And I honestly had no idea that the two chances were about equal, that of a cop being shot by a motorist and a motorist being shot by a cop. Did not think about that before. So actually it could be MORE dangerous for the motorist than for the LEO. This is food for thought.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  13. #43
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Maybe you're right. I just thought officer safety was paramount. But that would be if a person was an officer. Otherwise, it would not be paramount.
    And I honestly had no idea that the two chances were about equal, that of a cop being shot by a motorist and a motorist being shot by a cop. Did not think about that before. So actually it could be MORE dangerous for the motorist than for the LEO. This is food for thought.
    Let's assume that I was speeding, was pulled over, and the officer is walking up to my car right now...

    The statistics regarding which person - me or the LEO - is more likely to be violent are irrelevant. The situation I am in right now is what is important to me. That is my attitude, and it is the attitude of the LEO who has pulled me over. We each want to get home safely, and neither has any reason at all to trust the other. My life & safety are certainly not more important than the officer's, but neither is the officer's life & safety more important than mine.

    You can give all the reasons & statistics you want about how many LEOs are shot each year by permit holders vs how many permit holders are shot by LEOs, none of that matters at this moment (and I suspect the number is zero on both accounts). You have two people who are armed, likely know how to use those arms, and have no reason to trust each other. This is the problem.

    There is no answer that will satisfy both sides that can be implemented across the board. My solution is for all officers to assume that everyone they meet is armed, and to base their actions not on what each person has on their belt or in their pockets, but on what each person actually does. I know it is easier to allow officers to disarm anyone they want, whenever they want, but not force any officer to do so, but that situation leads to what we have now, which is the appearance of arbitrariness.

    If I as a permit holder knew that every time I interacted with an LEO I was going to be disarmed, then I could be prepared for that and act accordingly. The same can be said if I always knew I would not be disarmed. The fact that it is a crap-shoot is what really causes problems. No permit holder feels he should be disarmed (and rightfully so I think). But when it is left up to the officer, the officer becomes the focus of the permit holder's anger when they choose to require disarmament.

    If this was a known situation before hand, then even if we didn't like it, we could blame it on "the administration", or anyone other than the man or woman standing right in front of us at that moment. This would lead to lower blood pressure all the way around, and better interactions at the precise time when a smooth interaction is exactly what is required. We all know that arguing with an officer at the side of the road is a battle no civilian is ever going to win. Why not create a situation where this one, very large & important issue is defused before hand?
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I don't think they should be disarmed, for a simple traffic stop, no. But there are people on this board who could give a ...... about officer safety....
    I doubt whether many LEOS require a motorist to disarm. It seems to be enough that they know the motorist is armed because the motorist just told them. What I said was simply that officer safety is paramount for officers and officer safety is not paramount for motorists.
    And I learn something new all the time here and was actually thanking the person who pointed out that a lot of LEOS shoot motorists. Or if not a lot, enough to be concerned about where it cuts both ways. So now I see that motorist safety is equally of concern. So it is more a gratitude to others for pointing things out that I had not known.
    But disarming a person re a minor traffic infraction or speeding? Never. I don't understand why it would ever be done, in all seriousness, now. Other things? Maybe. As I said, what about a warrant, where LEO must make the arrest? Now he or she must disarm a motorist who may or may not be willing to go to the warrant. And even worse if it is a straight warrant. So I am not talking in my posts about speeding or minor infractions. I can't see any reason for disarming someone for those.
    I doubt that zero permit holders ever shoot cops or commit serious crimes just because they have the permit to carry. And even if it were zero, the potential is there.
    And why are folks so puzzled about why a LEO would want his or her safety ensured?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I think my reference to cops being shot was to highlight just how dangerous it is on the highways and the streets. I don't think we realize just how dangerous it is. If it is dangerous, then precautions must be taken.
    No reason to ever disarm a motorist stopped for minor traffic infractions.
    As I said, how could officer safety ever be as important to the motorist as it is to the officer? It never can be.
    We see things differently. I see the highways and streets as potentially dangerous places because of the numbers of evil people out there like never before. Therefore LEOs should do what they think is necessary at that time to make sure they go off duty in their vehicle instead of a body bag. It happens. I have been to many police funerals, four of which I knew very well. All victims of shootings. Never thought it could or would happen to them. In this country in which we live it is not a real rare thing.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

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