Found myself in a potentially bad spot yesterday.

This is a discussion on Found myself in a potentially bad spot yesterday. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A little background:I've been involved with a little "dispute" with the Property Owners Association in my neighborhood. There is a rule that no signs are ...

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Thread: Found myself in a potentially bad spot yesterday.

  1. #1
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Found myself in a potentially bad spot yesterday.

    A little background:I've been involved with a little "dispute" with the Property Owners Association in my neighborhood. There is a rule that no signs are allowed on your property at all. I didn't know about the rule, even though I have a copy of the covenants, so I put up a small political sign in my front yard. Someone had taken it down a couple times but I just put it right back up. That's normal in this area, politics is serious business. :) Anyway, one of the "representatives" from the POA came by the house when I wasn't home and talked to my wife and told her to take it down so she did. I couldn't believe there was a rule about signs so I looked in the covenants and see that it does indeed say no signs, no exemption for Realty signs or anything. Well there are signs up all over my neighborhood, mostly For Sale/For Rent type signs, but others too. Since they haven't been enforcing the rule I want them to just keep not enforcing it, especially not against me. After exchanging emails/phone calls with the POA, they insisted that the rule only covered political signs and asked me to come to Monday's board meeting so he could show me the text in the covenants. So I go:

    I have my CHL from the state of Arkansas and carry most of the time. For the most part, if I'm not in a gun-free zone I'm armed. But there are a lot of gun free zones that interfere. This time, I had just come from a gun-free zone so my gun was locked up in my center console when I got to the POA building for the board meeting. I didn't make a conscious choice to go in unarmed, I just forgot I guess. I didn't really consider it a hostile place so it slipped my mind.

    I go in and right away the president acknowledges me and says that he re-read the covenants and sees what I was talking about (which means he didn't bother reading them before, but at least he is now). He starts to tell me how the covenants should read and how they are going to change them next year, yada yada yada. The official meeting hasn't started yet, but I'm optimistic that he is going to just let it all slide and not worry about it until they get the rule fixed to be more reasonable. Then in walks the "representative" that had talked to my wife. Apparently he is also the one that kept taking down my sign. This is where the meeting went downhill. I mentioned to him that it is actually a crime to remove a political sign without the candidate/property owners permission. He was already mad that I kept putting it back up and just got more mad. He got up and grabbed me and proceeded to take me outside, while inviting me to "take it outside". I ducked out of his grip and ran to the other side of the room and it occurs to me, I'm unarmed! I asked the board to intervene as he came after me again and they just sat there. He grabbed me again and shoved me against the wall this time. Now I'm being completely non-aggressive because he is just grabbing and shoving, but I'm really worried it is going to go further. I got out of his grip again and ran around the room trying to call 911. At this point the treasurer tells me I'm going to have to call them from outside the room so I run out. He didn't follow me out, maybe one of the board members intervened as I ran out, I don't know.

    Since 911 had already answered I decided to report it and waited for the sheriff deputy to arrive, he didn't come out until the sheriff arrived.

    I told my story and he/they told theirs. It turns out that grabbing my arm and pulling/pushing me against the wall would get him an "assault ticket" but none of the witnesses "saw" that apparently. The deputy told me that they had said I "brought it on myself" but none could give a detail on what I did that brought it on me, so he wasn't going to pursue that with me, but in exchange he wasn't going to write a ticket to the other guy either. That was actually fine with me, since he didn't chase me out I think he had realized his mistake and maybe learned something.

    Did I learn anything? I don't know. I would not have drawn in this situation because he wasn't doing any harm to me and "I run faster scared than he does mad!" but I didn't leave myself the option if it had gone uglier.

    I did not expect this to be a hostile place at all. So far, all the conversations I had had were cordial and neither side seemed mad. If anything, I felt like the board members were trying to "lead a young fellow along" and help me understand. In fact, the president even admitted he had made a mistake in reading the covenants when I first got there. I am much younger than everyone I have talked to at my POA. (My wife thinks they might be getting irritated that all of us young kids are moving into their retirement community). I had put them into the nice old-guy category in my mind and had actually let myself fall to condition white. (How did he get ahold of me! TWICE!) He should have never been able to get that close to me the first time, I should have been retreating as soon as he started coming at me.

    Would things have been different if I was armed? I think so, I hope so at least. I hope I would have never let myself fall below condition yellow if I had been armed. I would have been out the door before he got out of his seat.

    It was stupid of me and could have gone very bad very fast. What's funny/sad is that I still categorize the guy that attacked me as "weak old-guy" and don't think anything bad could happen. He has to have gotten "Scared straight" when the deputy showed up. Right? Even though he knows where I live, he won't come to my house again.... will he?

    I guess I still need to let this soak in for awhile to see if I can learn anything.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Jackle1886's Avatar
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    Wow, just goes to show that you can trust no one. And that everyone is a potential threat. Never let your guard down, it's that moment they will get you. Stay armed and stay safe.

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    Member Array ellerblr's Avatar
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    Let me jokingly remind you of Marine Corps Rule #23 (Don't know if it's real or not):

    Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill everyone that you meet.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I would check on your Force Continium Laws in your state. Most states unless you completely felt your life was indanger you could not have used Lethal means however maybe reasonable force to repel the immediate touching was in order. Pepper spray maybe an option.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I feel I've heard that kind of story way too many times. Yours isn't the only experience of that sort that I've heard of with those POA/HOA board types. Every one I've run into has bee madder than the hatter. It was a learning experience though. Next time you'll be prepared.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why, but I find that when I'm armed I am more alert for trouble and calmer in my responses. My wife remarked recently that I have a shorter fuse than I used to, but has not connected it to my carrying.
    Howard
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    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

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    Member Array inman's Avatar
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    I don't believe in POA. It was my money that bought the property, and they aren't going to tell me what I can and can't do on it. I also would not pay the dues for them. That just seems to be money well wasted.
    I suggest that if you can find in your inner self the will to inflict violence on someone who is trying to victimize you, and can back up that iron will with all the force that you can muster, you will most likely be successful.

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    Member Array thepittman's Avatar
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    I'm sorry I'm a little less we'll contained. If he would have came at me like that he would be laying on the floor from a boot to the chin. Good job in keeping your composure.
    3/320th Field Artillery
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    Member Array sasomers's Avatar
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    Even if I had been carrying, if there were no threat of deadly force, I would not have drawn my weapon. To do so could be construed as deadly force in Alaska, and if I had pointed the weapon at my assailant, even if it were done only to deescalate the situation, it definitely would have been considered deadly force.

    Nothing in your post would have justified the use of deadly force, so I would have ended up in jail, without my weapon and likely would have done 1 - 5 years if not more in prison.

    I have kept my situational awareness at yellow since the day I first carried my firearm.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I guess in the future if you are invited to a meeting to air out differences you need to invite a few witnesses,I would also repost the sign and let the candidate know what's going on,also get a surveillance cam to catch the guy removing it
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Tye, I'll second the pepper spray...if anything, just because it would be funny and make a great story...I mean, because it would effectively de-escalate the situation without being forced to use a greater amount of force...yeah, that's what I meant.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Member Array alfack's Avatar
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    Put the sign up again and if he comes on your property to take it down, have him arrested for trespassing, or get a restraining order filed on him.

    POAs suck in some ways, but are good in others. It's not cool for your neighbor to collect junked out cars and let them pile up on his property, because it has a direct effect on the value of your property.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I guess in the future if you are invited to a meeting to air out differences you need to invite a few witnesses,I would also repost the sign and let the candidate know what's going on,also get a surveillance cam to catch the guy removing it
    When I go into situations where any disagreement may occur, I enable my voice recorder. My cell phone now has that capability. Maybe yours does also.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Fast Cloud's Avatar
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    Pepper spray would have cleared that room!!!
    "Any rationally thinking person is armed" ---Hinds Co. constable John Lewis

    NRA member

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    Array TX-JB's Avatar
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    File on your POA. They are violating your 1st amendment rights. just like it is illegal to remove a political sign, they cannot pass an ordinance in the covenents, that violate your civil rights.

    Had a similar POA problem with my direct tv dish. They tried to make me have it moved where it could not be seen from the street. When we got to the Justice of the Peace court, I mentioned FCC regulations allow the placement of antenna or dish, where needed, for the reception of TV signals, and the judge agreed. They were madder than could be when they had to pay all the costs, including my time lost from work, and the judge warned them about harassing me. I don't get bothered anymore.

    Just my $0.02.
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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