Borderline situations

This is a discussion on Borderline situations within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We hashed this issue out pretty thoroughly in this thread: Lessons Learned The discussion was a little bit tedious at times--as we were discussing an ...

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Thread: Borderline situations

  1. #16
    Member Array Hoosier's Avatar
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    We hashed this issue out pretty thoroughly in this thread:
    Lessons Learned

    The discussion was a little bit tedious at times--as we were discussing an article that few of us had read! Still, the comments were good ones on both sides.

    The bottom line: there is no great answer. If you exercise your Constitutional rights of freedom of speach, etc., you could wind up spending a LOT of money in attorney's fees. If you give up all your rights, then carrying a gun has made you a prisoner.

    I guess my own take is some middle ground. I pick my battles, and try to sound reasonable when I do speak up. But sometimes I do speak up.

    Most recently, I was at a theater with a noisy group interupting the movie. I looked at them. No effect. I went over and talked to them politely but firmly. No effect. I went and complained to the staff. Nothing happened. Then a woman in our group (a very motherly type) tried. No effect. I went back outside and got a staff member and told her that something simply had to be done, and it had to be done immediately. A police officer came in, and made his presence known. He did it again. No more problem.

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  3. #17
    Member Array Wyoming's Avatar
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    My mailbox is 1/4 inch welded steel plate on a chunk of 4 inch drill stem that is set in the ground about 4 feet with almost 24 inches of concrete around it. Yep, it took a little time and effort, but no more ball bat problems. I think it has been hit once or twice, would like to know how much their hands stung after that run-in.

  4. #18
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    When the neighborhood thugs get tired of listening they may return under cover of dark at their choosing and simply tear up the property or mailbox.
    The home owner is up against a wall, he/she cannot let loose with a 12 guage and salt nor throw a 2x4 at them as they will get the law! You read all the time how some poor women has used video over a period of time to capture the acts of these thugs in order to get the police to act.
    To some extent its very dangerious today for a homeowner to challange such actions by the thugs. The homeowner cannot simply let loose with a volley from the shotgun because we for the most part are law abiding and try not to step over the line. We are aware of our actions and try to be careful.
    The thug on the other hand gets a good feeling out of your inability to shut him down.
    It was so much simpler when I was younger, your relatives found out who was screwing with the family and the matter was taken care of.
    I hope you have peace and quiet in the neighborhood.
    As you slide down the banister of life,
    May the splinters never point the wrong way.
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    NRA Life Member

  5. #19
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    Wyoming - I think the only thing that might defeat your mailbox would be a snowplow!!

    Richard - sadly you are right - and that is one of the very aggravating aspects of the modern punk - knowing as they seem too that they can basically flip you the bird with impunity.

    Those kids we saw were I suspect not locally resident as I know most faces - so perhaps they were just outa county or outa state punks! Not been seen since that I have been aware of.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  6. #20
    Member Array XD40's Avatar
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    I am with TankSoldier on this. Just because we carry does not mean we give up our rights to confront immoral or illeagal activities, especially if that activity involves our property. Asking/telling someone to leave your property alone or that you do not appreciate their foul mouths in the presence of your family is not a provocation in my mind. Your actions after this point could be construed as provocation if YOU escalate the situation. Say the juveniles walked away cursing you under their breath, you ran after them shouting threats, that could be interrpretted as escalation. We talk all the time about meeting force with force and protecting our families. And yet many of you are advising to simply turn the other cheek and let them get away with their actions. Isn't that how we got to this point? The constitution also gives us the right to protect our property. I don't see anything in the description from P95 that would have prevented him from drawing a weapon if the group became seriously threatening after being informed that what they were doing was wrong/illegal and to stay off your property. To say that we cannot confront wrongdoers UNLESS they are a threat to us just gives them more of an envelope within which they can practice their 'trade'. And to do that is to give-in. Let them flip you the bird for telling them to stay away or stop what they're re doing, if they escalate it further than that, respond accordingly. Remember, they started it with their actions. IMO
    Last edited by XD40; October 18th, 2005 at 11:16 AM. Reason: spelling
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    "He who goes about unarmed in paradise, had better be sure that is where he is!" James Thurber

  7. #21
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    I agree 100% XD40. However a prosecutor may not. And ultimatley it's up to each of us to determine what and how much risk we are willing to take. Obviously state laws also play into this as well as how criminal friendly the area you live in is. In my area - no big deal. You might even be able to get away with a public spanking if they are misbehaving too poorly. :)

  8. #22
    Member Array XD40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe/OH
    You might even be able to get away with a public spanking if they are misbehaving too poorly. :)
    A public spanking might be just what these 'juveniles' need!
    ----------------------------------------------
    Bob McDuffee, co-host DogWatch Social Club Podcast
    Thoughtful Conversation, Considered Opinion and a Touch of Insanity
    "He who goes about unarmed in paradise, had better be sure that is where he is!" James Thurber

  9. #23
    Member Array Bob F.'s Avatar
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    Nice to have a camera handy, esp video w/ long lens! Have security in waistband in case they don't like being photographed! Wife inside w/ shotty that can become visible if they approach on your property.

    Stay safe.
    Bob

  10. #24
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    Talking Lights Cammera Action!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob F.
    Nice to have a camera handy, esp video w/ long lens! Have security in waistband in case they don't like being photographed! Wife inside w/ shotty that can become visible if they approach on your property.

    Stay safe.
    Bob
    A good video cammera, along with a cell phone is a great weapon. Cops love a good show of a Bg making a total a** of them self.

    You: You guys know if some one were to do that to your mail box you would be really Pi**ed off.

    Them: F*** you man!

    You: Dose your momie know that you use that kind of language?

    Them: Go to H*** you old F***

    You: (cammera still rolling) You do know you can go to jail for that don't you?

    Them: Kiss my A**

    You: No thank you, I've all realdy had may daily dose of stupidity today.

    Them: Hay old F*** how would you like your A** kicked!

    You: Oh no thank you Oh you said kicked not Licked.

    By now the polcie are here and they get to go to jail, with the video
    tape as evidence for their threats of assault.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Messing with mail boxes is not a minor thing - druggies steal the credit card bills and other financial stuff. It's used in identity theft and is worth it's weight in drugs!

  12. #26
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Tell them to leave. Call 911 if needed. Upgrade your mail box to a piece of 6', 4" steel pipe, with a 1/4" rectuangular plate welded to the top, with half of an 8" steel pipe welded on top of that. Sink your pipe 2' in the ground, and set with fiber re-enforced concrete. Paint a frilly white with little red flaggie.

    Plays hell with mailbox smashers- especially the car-and-ballbat crews. My dad was a welder...........
    That's the kind of mailbox I need... Ours has been knocked down several times by the mailbox baseball team (little bas**rds!)..
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Only Glock... try this one. Take your old mailbox and fill it with concrete and then mount it. You now have a concrete property address marker on top of a sheer post that will meet traffic code. Mount your new real mailbox right past it. Your postal carrier will figure out where to put your mail. Paint your address marker bright neon pink for effect. I guarantee the all star hitter for the mailbox baseball team will be in for a surprise.

    P95... I feel ya. Don't be afraid, but don't be the one to escalate. If they want to escalate, take action as neccesary. But don't taunt, threaten, or anything else that could even begin to put you in the wrong. When it comes time for the police report, those little punks will most certainly lie to the police and say you threatened them. No need to give them any truth to add to it.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  14. #28
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    When I worked retail we used to deter shoplifters by "killing them with kindness". While it won't work in all situations, I have a feeling that with most "punk kids" it probably would.

    Let me give you an example....most of these petty criminals, at least in my experience start to become squeamish and back down as soon as they realize they are being watched. You don't have to start an altercation with them to stop them, you can just as easily use "kind words" that would be purveyed as you being just another helpful citizen.


    "Excuse me, are you folks lost. I haven't seen you around this area before, you must be looking for something! Well, why don't you let me call Jim down the street, he's a county sheriff and he knows this area REALLY well, I'm sure he could help you find what you were looking for."

    or

    "Oh hello, are you folks picking up the mail for the Jeffersons? I wasn't aware they were on vacation! Let me go ahead and give them a call right now and leave a message on their answering machine! I hope they are having a good time! Better yet, I should call the police and make sure they do an extra patrol by the house tonight! We wouldn't want any unsavory types hanging around you know."


    Now...you've let them know, in NO uncertain terms that you are watching what they are doing, and despite your "kind words" they know that you know they are up to no good. Would a jury see this as "starting an altercation"...probably not, but you got your point across. If they cease and desist, call the police...if they start a fight....don't look at me, I was just trying to help!
    "Life exists at a level of complexity almost beyond our ability to comprehend. It's a well known fact that if you try to take apart a cat to see how it works one of the first things you have on your hands is a non-working cat" - Douglas Adams

    "All things are governed by law" - Hippocrates

  15. #29
    Member Array vernonator's Avatar
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    I'm with TankSoldier on this one...be polite, but tell them that what they are doing is wrong and ask them to leave your property. I had a similar situation this past summer. We recently moved to an acerage on a small lake with some timber. Well the local farmers kids thought that they could ride their 4-wheelers thru our woods with impunity. I finally stopped one of them and politley asked them to stop - if they had gotten violent would I have been in the wrong for starting the situation? I don't think so - you are well within your rights to ask someone to leave your property. Just because you carry does not mean you have lost that right.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    But OTOH just how much do we put up with?
    Only as much as our morality and citizenship (not to say ego/pride) will tolerate. No more than that.

    Let's say he ... got threatening?
    Then you'd be within your rights to resist being attacked, using the degree of force (depending on your state's laws) necessary to prevail. Always.

    I guess one of us should have gone in to 911 - in fact they went on their way.
    Gone, as in left the scene? Absolutely not, as you would have just lost your only friendly witness to the cascade of events that was about to occur. The cell phone is your friend, particularly in such situations as this, where going out of sight allows a known anti-social pair of people to do whatever it is they're going to do next ... without witnesses. Anticipating the pride/ego of a rebuffed criminal dictates that anything's possible the moment a perp is shown to be the criminal he/she truly is. They don't like being shown that. It's taken as a "diss" ... which malarkey, of course.
    If he had produced a gun then - well - had I started things or him?
    Is your asking that their existing crime cease going to be considered escalation or provocation on your part. Only in cannibal societies. Depite prior comments I've made elsewhere on my opinions as to the U.S. government's position in that regard, frankly no law I know of in the USA considers as provocation a civil, peaceful request by a homeowner that their property be respected. You're within your rights. Act accordingly.

    And, had he produced the actual means of lethal force, you'd have been 100% justified in responding accordingly. The mere fact that you know you're armed has nothing to do with it, if you're in the "right" and respond in a civil, proper fashion. In such cases, the escalation and felonious activity is absolutely the perp's doing.

    I couldn't help wondering tho - just where we draw lines.
    At the point of righteousness. By that I mean, not self-righteousness ... but in terms of who and what is right and proper and civil. It's no problem to be a citizen and state your case to a criminal in the act of committing a crime on your property or against your person/family. It's not escalation or provocation to make such a stand. If done simply as a request, any escalation on the part of the criminal may be met with the degree of force required, given the laws in force (ie, duty to retreat, disparity of force, the degree allowed, etc).

    Do we avoid ''situations'' because we carry - or do we still feel able to remonstrate with punks doing stupid stuff?
    I'm completely cognizant of the risks of standing up in situations. I eliminate my ego and my pride, when it comes to such things, 'cause frankly that can get me killed. There's zero room for such feelings when dealing with criminals, when armed. And, in the case of a smaller insured item being toyed with or even stolen, I personally don't believe it's worth my life to defend it. The nice thing is, there are modern tools that can be used (cell phones, digital cameras); there are techniques to monitor/follow instead of confront (get in the car and keep within sight, until the police arrive to review your digicam photos). Doesn't mean the perp won't get stopped ... it just means it will be stopped with the best tool available (cavalry if appropriate; digicam/following if appropriate, with subsequent police action for the crime; direct contact/force if need be, but as a last resort given the lethality of our capabilities).

    Not everything need be a personal response by a citizen. Indeed, such contact-distances engagement with criminals doesn't always come up roses. Keep in mind the simple fact that this pair of deviants knows where you live, and that you've got a family to protect (not just today, but tomorrow). Were the situation to leave a bummed criminal knowing where you live, you've got to assume he/she isn't going to be very pleased. Though I'll grant it's tough to allow toughs and anti-social types any leeway, that's part of the deal when armed with lethal weapons. IMO, Florida sums it up nicely: "a license to carry a concealed weapon is not a license to use it." Depends on the circumstances.


    In short, my guidelines for my actions are these:
    • Use your head. It's there for a reason. And it's the beset weapon, every time.
    • Every situation's different; every criminal may as easily be armed as I am, so caution is due.
    • Every citizen has a right to stop a crime in progress, to address a criminal verbally or physically as required, using necessary force to stop the crime if required ... up to and including lethal force (if justified).
    • Every citizen has a moral obligation to helping others where he/she is able.
    • Every citizen's first obligation is to his/her own family and person, always. Can't be protecting your family if you get yourself killed via chest-pounder engagements with perps.
    • The smart option should prevail, and that depends on risk, timing, position, witnesses, weaponry, physical health, mental attitude. Behind the curve but not quite prepared? Decide accordingly. Fully prepared and ahead of the game? Decide accordingly.
    • If backed into a corner or threatened with death, fight to the death as need be, 'cause you've only got one of those.


    Works for me.

    Ditto on the above suggestions to "kill 'em with kindness." Can be effective. Have done this once, years ago, and it worked as described above. Nice technique.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; January 25th, 2007 at 10:14 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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