Borderline situations

This is a discussion on Borderline situations within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok - we all need to avoid trouble - that's a given. But OTOH just how much do we put up with? Reason I bring ...

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 62

Thread: Borderline situations

  1. #1
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482

    Borderline situations

    Ok - we all need to avoid trouble - that's a given.

    But OTOH just how much do we put up with?

    Reason I bring this up - this evening before dark, a punk, girl firiend and real junior were walkin along our road. Wife and I heard ''mail box sounds'' - and she went out front with me following - and ''reminded'' these folks that interfering with mail boxes was an offense. They were messing with some mail boxes.

    I suggested my wife keep low key which she did but - made me wonder - first off these punks were well due a reminder of how to behave - or not to behave but - what if?

    What if the young guy had wanted trouble and come over to start something? There I was on the porch - open carry but not obvious to them. Had he gotten serious - what were my options?

    I was on my property of course but no ''castle doctrine'' here. Let's say he had no gun but got threatening? I guess one of us should have gone in to 911 - in fact they went on their way. If he had produced a gun then - well - had I started things or him?

    I couldn't help wondering tho - just where we draw lines. Do we avoid ''situations'' because we carry - or do we still feel able to remonstrate with punks doing stupid stuff?

    Fine dividing line I reckon - but sure as heck - it ain't easy to watch punks doing stupid things.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member
    Array Miggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Miami-Dade, FL
    Posts
    6,258
    In this specific case, I don't think the Castle Doctrine would have applied. Even though the punks were doing their stuff, your wife "confronted" the idiots. If things got out of hand, it would be both your fault for starting a situation that escalated into the display or use of a firearm when the punks' fault did not raise to the category of a felony in which deadly force may be used. At least that is the way I would see it.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  4. #3
    1952 - 2006
    Array acparmed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    1,371
    Miggy has a good point. If all they are doing is messing with the mailboxes, then they are doing nothing that rates more intervention from you than a phone call and an observant eye.
    Only after they have torn down your mailbox and are advancing on the house do you have the option of escalating the situation by confronting them. I wouldn't allow them access to the house itself. I would step outside and stand my ground on the front porch.
    The rest of the scenario is up to them and just how much they want to be Darwin Candidates.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  5. #4
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    15,850
    I don't see why you can not chew em out. As long as you back off and retreat into your house and all other avenues to de escalate the situation if it increases.

  6. #5
    1952 - 2006
    Array acparmed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    1,371
    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    I don't see why you can not chew em out. As long as you back off and retreat into your house and all other avenues to de escalate the situation if it increases.
    Because by chewing them out you are provoking and incident to occur.

    IMO
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  7. #6
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    15,850
    I will have to disagee, if you ask em to leave your property alone and they threaten ya, you back off and they keep coming, I don't believe a jury would convict ya, at least in my area. Now if you are yelling and threatening them its a diffrent ball game.

  8. #7
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,111
    Actually, there is no reason why you cannot go out and tell somebody to quit messing with your mailbox...or you're going to call the cops. That's fine. But, with a first obligation to retreat...if the perp starts getting $hitty then you really do need to go inside & call the police. You would have hard time explaining how you felt it was necessary to stay on the dangerous side of your front door in order to shoot somebody for acts of petty vandalism to your mailbox.

    Now if:
    Whoops! ~ You accidentally locked yourself out of your house & the perp then pulls your mailbox right up out of the ground...and charges at you with it over his head...then by all means...have a go at him to stop him from doing you bodily harm.

  9. #8
    VIP Member
    Array Miggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Miami-Dade, FL
    Posts
    6,258
    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    I will have to disagee, if you ask em to leave your property alone and they threaten ya, you back off and they keep coming, I don't believe a jury would convict ya, at least in my area. Now if you are yelling and threatening them its a diffrent ball game.
    It can be percieved by a jury as Ego getting the best part of you and escalating the situation. IMHO a better soultion would be to confront the punks, phone in hand while saying in a loud tone of voice: "The police has been notified of your activities." or "911? Yes there are 3 individuals damaging my property. The first one is a blonde white male, 5' 10", 140 Lbs, wearing a Gun 'n' Roses black T-shirt and jeans. The second one is a latino female........."

    PS: Call your local PD Non-emergency number instead of 911. Mess with the Punk's heads by stating that you are calling 911. If the punks decide to escalate, the Non-emergency operator should be able to switch you inmediately to 911 or deal with the emergency him/herself.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  10. #9
    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Cinci, OH
    Posts
    376
    I understand that when carrying, we have to be somewhat cautious on how we handle confrontations - but it seems like that is a little overboard. Maybe in some areas that would be the prudent choice - but not in mine.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Tell them to leave. Call 911 if needed. Upgrade your mail box to a piece of 6', 4" steel pipe, with a 1/4" rectuangular plate welded to the top, with half of an 8" steel pipe welded on top of that. Sink your pipe 2' in the ground, and set with fiber re-enforced concrete. Paint a frilly white with little red flaggie.

    Plays hell with mailbox smashers- especially the car-and-ballbat crews. My dad was a welder...........

  12. #11
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    I'll reiterate my innate desire to avoid just about any confrontation - it is part of the responsibility of carry.

    Mrs P95 did in fact only go check the mail box over other side which belongs to a very disabled old lady - and reminded the punks verbally from some distance that what they were doing was wrong. That was as far as it went and then we just stayed on the porch a while. Got me to thinking tho.

    My reason for posting (and I may not have described enough to give a total mental picture) - was really just to highlight the dilemmas we can face. Many a time a ''reminder'' to some punk is well justified, and yet thru our carry obligations rarely very likely.

    OTOH - with the attitudes of so many young these days - there is the thought that they should not continually get away with their crap.

    Maybe a bit of ''damned if you do - damned if you don't''
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,133
    Pointing out to someone that they are breaking the law isn't provocation. If P95Carry had to show or use his firearm it would be after the CRIMINAL escelated the situation to that level.

    Had his wife wished to do so she could have placed the suspects under private person's arrest... she witnessed them commiting a crime. Would exercising her right to arrest have been "provocation" justifying an attack on her?
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  14. #13
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Thx tank - that is another way to look at it.

    Tho I still reckon to pretty much avoid trouble always - at same time, seeing the law being flagrantly broken is hard to swallow!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  15. #14
    Member Array ibex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    NRW, Germany
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    Pointing out to someone that they are breaking the law isn't provocation.
    Funny, thought about exactly this topic this afternoon. I agree with P95 that CCW permit holders have a higher responsibility to avoid trouble and deescalate. But I also came to tanksoldiers conclusion. Telling someone off is not picking a fight, no matter how the offender feels about that.

  16. #15
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    15,850
    I think as long as you are calm and polite you should be o.k. providing you have witnesses or the troublemaker has a record.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Printing...what's the borderline?
    By AutomagicLS1 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: July 9th, 2010, 05:35 PM
  2. How do you handle situations like this?
    By sbebenelli in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: November 17th, 2008, 12:58 AM
  3. The ''borderline'' BG
    By P95Carry in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: September 17th, 2005, 09:24 AM

Search tags for this page

borderlinesituations

Click on a term to search for related topics.