Would you aid an unarmed security guard? - Page 3

Would you aid an unarmed security guard?

This is a discussion on Would you aid an unarmed security guard? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sheldon J Key words private citizen simply donning a uniform does not give an individual any special authority, if you touch someone ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    Key words private citizen simply donning a uniform does not give an individual any special authority, if you touch someone it can become battery, and then the lawyers get involved.

    Meanwhile if you are a guard and this happens you will be at the very least put on administrative leave if not terminated on the spot. I have had extensive training in this area and it may be different in Fl but her in MI at least those are the facts and not just a blanket statement.

    Exceptions; Specially trained guards such as those in a nuclear power plant, they tend to contract their own Security (private Army). There are other examples of this but you will not find them at the local mall, ball game or theme park.
    In South Carolina EVERY Sled Licensed security officer has "all the powers of a deputy sheriff including arrest powers etc so yea you might find them at a mall, ball game, or theme park.

    If I get hit lawyers (as in a lawsuit). would be the least of their problems. My defending myself and Taking him or her into custody for a felony in my presence as well as the criminal consequences would be .

    The Statute I was talking about earlier that makes striking a Licensed security officer a felony.

    784.07 Assault or battery of law enforcement officers, firefighters, emergency medical care providers, public transit employees or agents, or other specified officers; reclassification of offenses; minimum sentences.--

    (1) As used in this section, the term:

    (a) "Law enforcement officer" includes a law enforcement officer, a correctional officer, a correctional probation officer, a part-time law enforcement officer, a part-time correctional officer, an auxiliary law enforcement officer, and an auxiliary correctional officer, as those terms are respectively defined in s. 943.10, and any county probation officer; an employee or agent of the Department of Corrections who supervises or provides services to inmates; an officer of the Parole Commission; a federal law enforcement officer as defined in s. 901.1505; and law enforcement personnel of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, the Department of Environmental Protection, or the Department of Law Enforcement.

    (b) "Firefighter" means any person employed by any public employer of this state whose duty it is to extinguish fires; to protect life or property; or to enforce municipal, county, and state fire prevention codes, as well as any law pertaining to the prevention and control of fires.

    (c) "Emergency medical care provider" means an ambulance driver, emergency medical technician, paramedic, registered nurse, physician as defined in s. 401.23, medical director as defined in s. 401.23, or any person authorized by an emergency medical service licensed under chapter 401 who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties. The term "emergency medical care provider" also includes physicians, employees, agents, or volunteers of hospitals as defined in chapter 395, who are employed, under contract, or otherwise authorized by a hospital to perform duties directly associated with the care and treatment rendered by the hospital's emergency department or the security thereof.

    (d) "Public transit employees or agents" means bus operators, train operators, revenue collectors, security personnel, equipment maintenance personnel, or field supervisors, who are employees or agents of a transit agency as described in s. 812.015(1)(l).

    (2) Whenever any person is charged with knowingly committing an assault or battery upon a law enforcement officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical care provider, a traffic accident investigation officer as described in s. 316.640, a nonsworn law enforcement agency employee who is certified as an agency inspector, blood alcohol analyst, or a breath test operator while such employee is in uniform and engaged in processing, testing, evaluating, analyzing, or transporting a person who is detained or under arrest for DUI, a traffic infraction enforcement officer as described in s. 316.640, a parking enforcement specialist as defined in s. 316.640, a person licensed as a security officer as defined in s. 493.6101 and wearing a uniform that bears at least one patch or emblem that is visible at all times that clearly identifies the employing agency and that clearly identifies the person as a licensed security officer, or a security officer employed by the board of trustees of a community college, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical care provider, intake officer, traffic accident investigation officer, traffic infraction enforcement officer, inspector, analyst, operator, parking enforcement specialist, public transit employee or agent, or security officer is engaged in the lawful performance of his or her duties, the offense for which the person is charged shall be reclassified as follows:

    (a) In the case of assault, from a misdemeanor of the second degree to a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.

    (c) In the case of aggravated assault, from a felony of the third degree to a felony of the second degree. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person convicted of aggravated assault upon a law enforcement officer shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 3 years.

    (d) In the case of aggravated battery, from a felony of the second degree to a felony of the first degree. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person convicted of aggravated battery of a law enforcement officer shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 5 years.

    (3) Any person who is convicted of a battery under paragraph (2)(b) and, during the commission of the offense, such person possessed:

    (a) A "firearm" or "destructive device" as those terms are defined in s. 790.001, shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 3 years.

    (b) A semiautomatic firearm and its high-capacity detachable box magazine, as defined in s. 775.087(3), or a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001, shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 8 years.

    Notwithstanding s. 948.01, adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence shall not be suspended, deferred, or withheld, and the defendant is not eligible for statutory gain-time under s. 944.275 or any form of discretionary early release, other than pardon or executive clemency, or conditional medical release under s. 947.149, prior to serving the minimum sentence.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    I'm sure everyone is getting tired of my repeating this phrase over and over (and over and over and...):

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

    Yes, I would aid a security guard who is being attacked - especially if he is out-numbered.
    "Bad spellers of the world - untie!"

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Lets keep it on topic and civil. I myself work private security. rules of engagement vary depending on state law and store /company rules. Nuff said.
    Bingo! And specially the part of the Company Rules. I am also a Security Officer and as per Company Rules I cannot touch anybody else unless for self defense or defense of somebody else (good luck with that since I am unarmed) but nothing on defense of property. I was actually chastised once for separating a drunkard who was on top of another person and about to get physical. Plus after a nice company sponsored refresher class, we were told that if an action taken by an officer was determined to be in detriment of the company, the officer in question would be literally left to wing it on his own if the aggrieved party decided to sue.

    As for the original question, my actions will depend on the level of aggression and if I consider it meets the Fear Of Death or Grave Bodily Harm statutes of Florida before I do anything.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    I have been particularly impressed by the responses made on this thread. I don't find anyone who would simply walk away and ignore the problem, and I see virtually everyone expressing a need to exercise good judment and exercise reasonable restraint. This is quite different from many responses which I have read on other similar threads where a significant number of people said if it did not involve themselves or their family, they would simply walk away.

    Congratulations Sheep Dogs!

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    As for the original question, my actions will depend on the level of aggression and if I consider it meets the Fear Of Death or Grave Bodily Harm statutes of Florida before I do anything.
    Great answer and Iíll have to say I agree with you.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog21 View Post
    In South Carolina EVERY Sled Licensed security officer has "all the powers of a deputy sheriff including arrest powers etc so yea you might find them at a mall, ball game, or theme park.


    (2) Whenever any person is charged with knowingly committing an assault or battery upon a law enforcement officer,......

    a person licensed as a security officer as defined in s. 493.6101 and wearing a uniform that bears at least one patch or emblem that is visible at all times that clearly identifies the employing agency and that clearly identifies the person as a licensed security officer,

    security officer is engaged in the lawful performance of his or her duties, the offense for which the person is charged shall be reclassified as follows:

    (a) In the case of assault, from a misdemeanor of the second degree to a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.
    Key words Licensed Security officer Here in Mi about the only place you will find a Licensed Security officer is at a nuclear power plant, basically no one else wants the added expense. Extra certification= higher pay for the individual and/or his (contracted) employer which increases the bottom line, and lets face it every company out there wants their security on the cheap.

    Although they may actually have a licensed Security person on the payroll you will not likely see them out on the floor, at the mall, ball game or theme park.

    What they will do he in Mi as needed is hire off duty Police officers for special event security and they of coarse carry all their credentials and authority with them uniform or no.

    All of our Ambulance, EMT's, n Firemen automatically fall under the protected guidelines of a police officer, and only a total nut case would ever mess with the person that is trying to save their life, but yes that has been known to happen.

    Back on topic I fully agree each scenario would have to be judged at the time. A knife is a life threatening incident, however a beating although painful is usually not, so a good alternate method to disperse the problem could be what is badly needed.
    What is could be viable is a non lethal alternative, maybe some good OCS N they have some nice sticky OCS that really causes quite a bit of discomfort, aims quite well they claim pin point at 20 feet, and will not drift, or wipe off with out some serious effort, and is MI legal.

    Humm thoughts for other threads topics, "Do you carry other means of defense besides your CCW?" and "Your favorite OCS"
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  7. #37
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    Key words Licensed Security officer Here in Mi about the only place you will find a Licensed Security officer is at a nuclear power plant, basically no one else wants the added expense. Extra certification= higher pay for the individual and/or his (contracted) employer which increases the bottom line, and lets face it every company out there wants their security on the cheap.

    Although they may actually have a licensed Security person on the payroll you will not likely see them out on the floor, at the mall, ball game or theme park.

    What they will do he in Mi as needed is hire off duty Police officers for special event security and they of coarse carry all their credentials and authority with them uniform or no.

    All of our Ambulance, EMT's, n Firemen automatically fall under the protected guidelines of a police officer, and only a total nut case would ever mess with the person that is trying to save their life, but yes that has been known to happen.

    Back on topic I fully agree each scenario would have to be judged at the time. A knife is a life threatening incident, however a beating although painful is usually not, so a good alternate method to disperse the problem could be what is badly needed.
    What is could be viable is a non lethal alternative, maybe some good OCS N they have some nice sticky OCS that really causes quite a bit of discomfort, aims quite well they claim pin point at 20 feet, and will not drift, or wipe off with out some serious effort, and is MI legal.

    Humm thoughts for other threads topics, "Do you carry other means of defense besides your CCW?" and "Your favorite OCS"
    The battery law I posted is a FLorida law.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog21 View Post
    The battery law I posted is a FLorida law.
    Understood, I'm not trying to compare Florida oranges to Michigan apples, as it was aptly said above the laws can vary by state, but a good general rule of thumb is that 99% of your mall security is of the non secured or bonded type, but just someone with a uniform, as is a great many places including ball parks and other places. I did not notice any "Licensed" patches on the Disney or Universal security officers, but then I have been wrong before.

    The topic question is would you render assistance too.... and I believe there is almost a 99.9% consensuses on yes with caveats here, now here I go with the in Mi thing again but WRT to CPR we have a good Samaritan clause that will not hold a individual at blame if things don't go quite as planed, and I believe it is wide enough in scope to apply to helping a individual in distress such as a security guard that is having a real bad day.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  9. #39
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    Understood, I'm not trying to compare Florida oranges to Michigan apples, as it was aptly said above the laws can vary by state, but a good general rule of thumb is that 99% of your mall security is of the non secured or bonded type, but just someone with a uniform, as is a great many places including ball parks and other places. I did not notice any "Licensed" patches on the Disney or Universal security officers, but then I have been wrong before.

    The topic question is would you render assistance too.... and I believe there is almost a 99.9% consensuses on yes with caveats here, now here I go with the in Mi thing again but WRT to CPR we have a good Samaritan clause that will not hold a individual at blame if things don't go quite as planed, and I believe it is wide enough in scope to apply to helping a individual in distress such as a security guard that is having a real bad day.
    Disney and universal security officers are inhouse security thus they dont need security licenses unless they are armed with firearms.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    ...we were told that if an action taken by an officer was determined to be in detriment of the company, the officer in question would be literally left to wing it on his own if the aggrieved party decided to sue...
    Ouch. In other words, "If you make us look bad, we hose you." Be on the lookout for a better company to work for!

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array glock21guy's Avatar
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    As decent human beanings we should help others in trouble.

    If I can clearly identify what is going on I would step in with out hesitation.
    Aaron

    If you don't protect your self, who will?

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array crzy4guns's Avatar
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    1) I would draw my gun and cover them and shout "STOP AND BACK AWAY - NOW!" Hopefully the guard would be able to radio for help and the group would comply to my commands. If not, then I would start shooting to save the guards life. 2) I would take the same action as in #1. Telling the BG to drop his knife - "NOW!".

  13. #43
    Member Array Dusty Miller's Avatar
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    Hey, if some guy is such a bozo that he takes a security guard job where he can't carry then he's on his own as far as I'm concerned. I'll risk my freedom to defend a loved one but an unarmed security guard is beyond my sympathy perimeter.

  14. #44
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    Security Officers if properly trained would not allow themselves to get into either situation without backup. That said there are alot of guys in uniforms that get a total of 1 days training if they're lucky, I would provide backup as needed whilst loudly calling 911. Since the Malls in this area are usually patrolled by LEO's they should arrive quickly.

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