Any gun fights you've heard of with laser sights involved?

This is a discussion on Any gun fights you've heard of with laser sights involved? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is the quote that sums it up well from the very article QK linked (an article written largely by who else but Crimson Trace); ...

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Thread: Any gun fights you've heard of with laser sights involved?

  1. #31
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    Here is the quote that sums it up well from the very article QK linked (an article written largely by who else but Crimson Trace);

    And the truth is that in many gunfights officers don''t use sights at all. Many will tell you afterward that during the shooting all they were looking at was the big gun in the suspect''s hand. This is why many agencies teach reaction point shooting for those instances when using any sight at all will be too slow. Equipping officers with laser sights should not change that in any way.

    I will say that this is very true from first hand experience. So why train with a gimmick that will not be useful at all when the elephant is barreling down at you? It just doesn't make sense to me one bit. In my mind, its like the guy why trains with a .22 on the range because he can be more accurate with it, but carries a 44 on the street. It only makes sense if you look at it from one angle, and don't consider the real world.

    I don't give a rats behind if you want to spend your money on goofy products to give yourself a false sense of your skills and artificially inflate your perceived level of competence. Its not me that is on the line, its you. I choose to train how the fight will actually go down, not on what happens in movies.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    I've owned a laser for about a year now.....had it on my EDC for the last three months. I like it there for now. I've trained without a laser for the last 20 some-odd years......I train and qualify without a laser. I'm pretty good without it and I'm not gonna start relying on it to supplement on any skills, or lack of. I believe it can be a useful tool to be employed in certin situations, but when the poop hits the air-motion-generator, you'll fall back on your training.

    I agree, for the most part, with SIXTO's overall assesment of the things. You fight like you train, so train to fight....and win.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Additionally, if the BG in my house sees a bright red dot (bouncing around on the wall or on his chest) then common sense tells me most BG's would retreat at that point. My goal is to NEVER have to shoot anyone, thus I think the laser is a good deterrent as well as a handy aiming aid. Just MHO of course.
    This is almost as bad as "pumping the shotgun" myth. He who hesitates in a gun fight dies.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #34
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    Well, in an ideal world everybody that owned a firearm for self defense would seek professional training - go to the range every weekend - get involved in some beneficial shooting sports, dryfire and do practice drills at home and....tune in to DefensiveCarry.com every night.

    That however is not the real world and the vast majority of defensive handgun owners will buy a handgun and then shoot occasionally and after a while probably not much at all.

    So unless we are for a mandatory dictatorship that prohibits citizens from purchasing and having available a firearm for a possible future self-defense scenario then we must be "pro" whatever may be available to help them get better hits.

    The average kid who takes piano lessons will not stay in after school and tinkle the ivories for 4 hours every afternoon.
    It just won't happen unless that kid happens to be a musical prodigy that is keenly interested in music and becoming a possible concert pianist.
    The vast majority of other kids that "have to take" piano lessons will put the barest minimum of effort into it. It's the reality of the world.

    So accepting "fact" as a "known given" that of the millions of firearms that are sold for purposes of personal defense - the incredible majority of those millions of people have no intention of devoting the necessary time and effort required to become a truly accomplished defensive shooter...technology has made it somewhat easier for those folks to defend life & limb.

    Objectively & without prejudice I see the Laser as a reliable modern mechanical device that is projected out and places the front sight of the firearm directly on the intended target.

    If the firearm POI and the Red Dot are properly keyed together the bullet will impact where the Red Dot is located on the threat.

    I don't see it as anything more or less than that.

    I (for sure) don't see it as a "Magic Pill" to make crappy shooters into highly accomplished shooters and I don't see it as a new fangled innovation to be ripped to shreds as being completely useless and without any merit either.

    It is simply what it is ~ which is a projected beam of highly concentrated light that matches the firearm projectile trajectory and can be placed directly on the intended target.

    As PopEye The Sailor Man Would Say.
    "I ams what I am and that's all that I am."

  6. #35
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    Largely I agree with what you just said, but it doesn't take years of hardcore training to be a decent combat shooter. It can be done in a weekend, with a case or two of ammo. Keep it up a few hours here and there and your golden. Its just like school work, learn the basics and the rest falls into place. Knowing what to study before the big test is also far more helpful than trying to cram the entire textbook.

    My whole argument is based on the laser doesn't do anything for you that you are not doing already... you just have to understand the principles behind combat shooting.(or what to study) Its nothing more than looking at your target, and pointing at it... the laser makes that no more proficient.

    Also, the bullet doesn't go where the red dot is, it goes where it was. I know its semantics, but I think people forget the difference sometimes.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfox462 View Post
    One of the concerns I have had with getting them is what would a prosecuter say? "if you had a laser, why not shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the knee"
    Does anyone else think this?
    Um, no. If it ever comes to that, I hope my lawyer will capable of defeating an argument that dumb.

    JMHO though.

  8. #37
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    Much of that is quite true. And I am "all for" some initial Firearm Safety and some good qualified professional firearm instruction.

    For the unwashed masses I'm hoping that when Grandma wakes up and finds the bad guy intruder in her home in the process of dumping her purse contents out onto the dresser - she can put the dot somewhere on the BG body and have a better chance of getting off a first shot hit rather than shooting the lightbulbs off the chandelier.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Largely I agree with what you just said, but it doesn't take years of hardcore training to be a decent combat shooter. It can be done in a weekend, with a case or two of ammo. Keep it up a few hours here and there and your golden. Its just like school work, learn the basics and the rest falls into place. Knowing what to study before the big test is also far more helpful than trying to cram the entire textbook.

    My whole argument is based on the laser doesn't do anything for you that you are not doing already... you just have to understand the principles behind combat shooting.(or what to study) Its nothing more than looking at your target, and pointing at it... the laser makes that no more proficient.

    Also, the bullet doesn't go where the red dot is, it goes where it was. I know its semantics, but I think people forget the difference sometimes.
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  9. #38
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfox462 View Post
    One of the concerns I have had with getting them is what would a prosecuter say? "if you had a laser, why not shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the knee"
    Does anyone else think this?
    What I would like to reply is "If you know as much about the law as you apparantly know about shooting your boss will soon be suggesting you find a new career."
    Howard
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    The ONLY 'story' I can add is my neighbor (LEO) loves his laser/light on his duty sidearm (SF X200 I think). He likes it due to the fact that drawing on a suspect he'll "run' the laser down said suspects face, forcing him to 'notice'. He says this has cut way down on his chasing down BG's through the woods and back allys.
    He HATES running!

    I love myCT laser grip and it's a great 'lil tool, but I don't 'rely' on it.....
    and if advertised 'stories' can't be verified, don't rely 'em.
    This bothers me a bit...

    If LEO is drawing on someone he should be preparing to fire, not "scare" the suspect. Also, I would think that when drawing he would be running the laser up their leg into COM, not across their face, as his pistol starts to pivot up after the draw. Plus lasers can cause eye damage and it this point the suspect has not posed an lethal threat else the LEO would have probably fired.

    I have CT grips on a couple of my guns, and I like them. When target shooting I prefer to switch the laser off, as I think they would be most useful under night/low-light conditions.

  11. #40
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    Now i can see some training applications for lasers in the sense it will give immediate feedback to both the trainer and trainee as to just where in the firing process things are going south . With that being said ....

    I only have experience with the CT grips on the smith 1911 and j frames and i dislike them strongly . In both cases the grips forced me to change my normal grip and lower my hand( i tend to get my grip as high as physically possible ). This both raised the axis of the bore ( thus increasing muzzle flip ) and changed the way the gun indexed in my grip to the point i was " fishing " for the sights . Now realize i have shot both enough that normally when i present the pistol the sights are right where i expect them to be and normally real close to perfectly sighted .

    Ill just say that if i bought one of the S&W models that came factory with the ct grips the first thing i would do is take them off and pitch them in the trash . If they suit you thats fine , but i have real issues with them for myself .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Much of that is quite true. And I am "all for" some initial Firearm Safety and some good qualified professional firearm instruction.

    For the unwashed masses I'm hoping that when Grandma wakes up and finds the bad guy intruder in her home in the process of dumping her purse contents out onto the dresser - she can put the dot somewhere on the BG body and have a better chance of getting off a first shot hit rather than shooting the lightbulbs off the chandelier.
    I'll concede that it might make Grandma feel better, and it maybe even help her get a shot where it needs to go (that maybe is a mighty big gamble) but it still artificially inflates her perceived skill level. In my book, that a very dangerous position to be in.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    it still artificially inflates her perceived skill level.
    I disagree .




    Grandma will load the little sucker up and put it in the nightstand drawer where either thro time passing or thro the rest of the crap in there pressing the pressure switch .. when she reaches for it the batterys will be dead anyway . As hopefully will the guy in her bedroom .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  14. #43
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    I believe that this same argument occured when people started using a two handed grip vs a one handed grip.
    A two handed grip shouldn't do anything for you that a one hand grip won't.
    If you depend on a two handed grip and one of your hands are not available, you will be in trouble.
    A two handed grip could lead to hesitation in shooting when the shooter is adjusting his support hand.
    If all you are going to do is point at the target and squeeze the trigger, a one handed point is more accurate than a 'two-handed' point.
    Any time a new technology or a 'revolution' in shooting comes about, the people most versed in the 'traditional' way, will always be the most resistant to change.

    Are there things that can go wrong with a laser? Yep. Are there situations where a laser might be a useful deterrant? Yep. Are there situations where a GG might try to scare a BG, and hesitate at the wrong moment? Yep.

    The same arguments that are being presented here can be used for any self defense situation.

    A gun, in itself, has been used millions of time as a deterrent without it having to be fired. Maybe a laser can add a few to those numbers. Who knows?

    If a laser can give Grandma a false sense of competence, then maybe a BG will have a false sense of Grandma's ability to hit him.

    If Grandma has to fire, a little dot might just help her hit her target. If it doesn't, she is no worse off than missing without the dot.

    And, as said above, there is always the chance that the dot could cause eye injury to the BG.

    ETA: I personally don't use a laser, but whatever floats your boat. I wish people who dislike them wouldn't be so adament about how it will do this, or do that. To each their own. I do think there is great merit in a laser for dry fire practice.
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhfox462 View Post
    One of the concerns I have had with getting them is what would a prosecuter say? "if you had a laser, why not shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the knee"
    Does anyone else think this?
    Fairly easy to explain but you have to use a little math and stuff. What you have to explain is that the bullet usually goes where the dot is at exactly "X" distance. At any other distance it will be either above and to the left or below and the right of the dot. (using laser grips) So since the bad guy was not kind enough to be standing on a measuring tape where I could verify he was exactly "X" distance away, all the red dot does is give an approximation of where the bullet will strike. Then you have to get into the offset of the laser module in relation to the bore and bullet drop calculations etc and how the trajectory and the laser beam can only intersect at one point.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I believe that this same argument occured when people started using a two handed grip vs a one handed grip.


    Any time a new technology or a 'revolution' in shooting comes about, the people most versed in the 'traditional' way, will always be the most resistant to change.

    Are there things that can go wrong with a laser? Yep. Are there situations where a laser might be a useful deterrant? Yep. Are there situations where a GG might try to scare a BG, and hesitate at the wrong moment? Yep.

    The same arguments that are being presented here can be used for any self defense situation.

    A gun, in itself, has been used millions of time as a deterrent without it having to be fired. Maybe a laser can add a few to those numbers. Who knows?

    If a laser can give Grandma a false sense of competence, then maybe a BG will have a false sense of Grandma's ability to hit him.

    If Grandma has to fire, a little dot might just help her hit her target. If it doesn't, she is no worse off than missing without the dot.

    And, as said above, there is always the chance that the dot could cause eye injury to the BG.

    This would be great if things happen like they do on T.V., but they dont. Gun fights happen quickly, they are ugly and violent beyond my ability to articulate... and they are over before they even begin.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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