Any gun fights you've heard of with laser sights involved?

[Dusty Miller]

[QUOTE=SIXTO;702050][QUOTE=Dusty Miller;702045]

If you are not the fastest shooter, you will be the coldest.


Yeah... it is. So whats the point you're trying to make?

Your wheel's spinning, but the hamster is dead...come back and engage me in a debate when the hamster is up and running again.

Nothing will change your mind. You've got yourself committed to the training model and that's going to be it until the day you die! Anything that threatens your point of view has to be attacked. Oh well, life goes on.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[SIXTO]

Nothing will change your mind. You've got yourself committed to the training model and that's going to be it until the day you die! Anything that threatens your point of view has to be attacked. Oh well, life goes on.

I wouldnt say that at all. I could say the same thing about other side of the argument, but I dont for good reason. If that were true, I would have stopped attending other peoples shooting schools long ago. I pick something new up at each one... I'll never stop learning, thats what life is all about.

Also if that were true, I wouldnt still be waiting here for someone to come up with a strong enough argument to change my mind and make me forget about real world experiances.


I find it amusing that here we are at page eight of the thread, and nobody could come up with one single shooting incident that a laser was instrumental. We can only debate and bicker about what Crimson Trace or Laser Max has told us.

Nothing here has threatened my point of view, and my smart comment was an attack on the nothing new/ non challenging argument you came up with. Until someone can articulate something a little smarter and worthwhile for me to debate, I'll be waiting.

Until then-

[QKShooter]

OK be nice. Differing points of view are appreciated.
Put LOTS of opinion and information "out there" and let folks digest it and then decide for themselves.

[SIXTO]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Sometimes officer safety/tactics does equal intimidation. If a BG is scared to react after having a weapon pointed at him or her, that would be intimidation but it would also be officer safety. If I can scare the BG by pointing my weapon at him or her, and cause the BG to comply with my orders, then my job is done without firing a shot.

I think we agree more than we realize, we are just looking at it two different ways. I'm saying that pointing a weapon at someone is done to protect myself. Intimidation may or may not be a by product, but its never the reason I did so in the first place.

Much like we as professionals never "shoot to kill". We know far better to ever utter that phrase. We only shoot to stop a threat, and death may or may not be a by product, but killing is never my intention.

Also just as a side note, check your use of force continuum, I'll bet you a box of Krispie Kremes that it says "display or presence of weapon" as a step in the continuum and nothing about pointing at a person until you rise to the level of deadly force. If not, I can make a strong argument for you to get that wording changed.

[mulle46]

I think we agree more than we realize, we are just looking at it two different ways. I'm saying that pointing a weapon at someone is done to protect myself. Intimidation may or may not be a by product, but its never the reason I did so in the first place.

Much like we as professionals never "shoot to kill". We know far better to ever utter that phrase. We only shoot to stop a threat, and death may or may not be a by product, but killing is never my intention.

Also just as a side note, check your use of force continuum, I'll bet you a box of Krispie Kremes that it says "display or presence of weapon" as a step in the continuum and nothing about pointing at a person until you rise to the level of deadly force. If not, I can make a strong argument for you to get that wording changed.

I see your point. I think we are looking at it in different ways. In response to your side note, I would win the box of Krispie Kremes but I don't eat donuts. LOL. Pointing a weapon at a subject is considered constructive authority, lowest level of force. My dept. uses the NJ use of force policy as its use of force policy. One of the subsections under deadly force is as follows: A threat to cause death or serious bodily harm, by the production of a weapon or otherwise, so long as the officer's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that deadly force will be used if necessary, does not constitute deadly force.

[SIXTO]

One of the subsections under deadly force is as follows: A threat to cause death or serious bodily harm, by the production of a weapon or otherwise, so long as the officer's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that deadly force will be used if necessary, does not constitute deadly force.

Huh... interesting. I've heard it phrased that way, but I suppose it works well.

[InspectorGadget]

I had a CT on my M9 and a Rail mount laser on my M4. I had a ACOG on the M4 which is a military red dot sight, I used the laser when I wanted someone to KNOW I was aiming at them, it usually worked perfectly as a deterrent/attention getter when I flash it in their face (Eyes bug out/ they raise their hands and stop what they are doing) Saved me having to actually shoot them. Never used the laser itself for an actual shooting I had the ACOG for that which is much better, just on the range to zero the laser. The rason I kept the CT on the M9, If I have to use it My M4 is jammed and AQ/Taliban are WAY WAY WAY too close, Clear the holster and start firing at the DOT.

[mulle46]

Huh... interesting. I've heard it phrased that way, but I suppose it works well.

I'm interested in the argument you mentioned earlier to change the use of force guidelines. I don't think that it would change my dept's guidelines, but any knowledge is a good thing, IMO. If you want, PM me.

[rube]

In situations that require a flashlight to clear the laser flashlight combo works well. For the purpose of targeting it would seem like a good tool in the event you don't want to discharge a round as a first choice but are hoping that the laser will defuse a confrontation. In an actual situations where lethal force is unavoidable day or night, you will point and fire. Even in low light circumstances you will point and fire trusting your instinct and training will kick in.

[SIXTO]

I'm interested in the argument you mentioned earlier to change the use of force guidelines. I don't think that it would change my dept's guidelines, but any knowledge is a good thing, IMO. If you want, PM me.

The paragraph you posted is not what I was expecting. In fact I havent seen that before. The only thing wrong with it is that it could hang you out to dry if you did get a questionable shooting. You are threatining deadly force, but you dont intend on using it? I could see that getting torn to shreds in a trial (civil in particular)

I would take it as drawing your weapon is OK, but not pointing at anyone... it leaves the threshold a little unclear.

[atctimmy]

Sixto: I have considered a laser for my home defense weapon because my wife needs all the help she can get. I don't think that it would mean much to me either way, but I picture her at the top of the stairs when its dark and shes scared. I really don't think she would have the discipline to think "front sight, front sight". So it seems to me that if a knife or baseball bat ( maybe even gun) weilding thug was coming up the stairs she stands a much greater chance of hitting that "all important" first shot COM than if she was just indexing on the gun. I also think it would make her more confident, and as you know confidence in yourself is a huge factor in not loosing your cool.
For the amateur or novice at three am in their home when there is a little time to prepare it could really help with that first shot. On the street with a carry gun probably not.

[Paymeister]

My concern is my poor vision: I can see a dot on a chest just fine, but I can't see the front sight very well at all without my glasses (or with the glasses I wear for driving). Seems like a laser would be dandy, and if I win the lottery you can be sure I'll get one. But practice and point-shooting might be the only realistic option since I can squeeze out ten or twenty bucks at a whack for ammo easier than devoting $250 for a laser when VISA still has a balance.

But really I want one so I can scare people and my friends will think I'm cool.

[Just kidding, Sixto!]

[SIXTO]

I can understand it slightly better if there is a vision issue like Paymeister has, but it still doesnt change the fact that learning to combat shoot is cheaper, easier and far more effective.

[Chevy-SS]

.......For the amateur or novice at three am in their home when there is a little time to prepare it could really help with that first shot.......

Let's face it, the BG that breaks in to your house at 3am is probably also an amateur. I think it's safe to say with 99% certainty that when that BG hears a 12ga pump action cycling, or sees a bright red dot land on his chest - he's gonna hightail it outta the house ASAP and you won't need to fire a shot.

Friend of mine had a BG in house in middle of night, so he pulled out his Mossberg pump-action. He said he cycled the action one time and the BG almost killed HIMSELF trying to get out of the house.................

-

[SIXTO]

Let's face it, the BG that breaks in to your house at 3am is probably also an amateur. I think it's safe to say with 99% certainty that when that BG hears a 12ga pump action cycling, or sees a bright red dot land on his chest - he's gonna hightail it outta the house ASAP and you won't need to fire a shot.

Friend of mine had a BG in house in middle of night, so he pulled out his Mossberg pump-action. He said he cycled the action one time and the BG almost killed HIMSELF trying to get out of the house.................

-

I dont buy into that line of thinking much, here is why;

If they are breaking into an occupied structure, they expect to be engaged on some level. Sure, I doubt they are some sort of tactical genius, but they are one of or a combination three things, Crazy, stupid or good at what they do.

Sure, things like what happened to your friend do happen, I think the fact that your friend was even home and let his presence be known probably would have been enough to scare off the burgler. I bet the burgler thought nobody was home. With the increase frequency of "home invasion" type robbery (not burglary) I'm not going to chance that a noise or redt dot is going to notice or have them quaking in their timberlands.