April 19th, 2008 07:51 PM
Any gun fights you've heard of with laser sights involved?
I'm sold on the crimson laser light for training and dry firing. It's in addition to everything else I do and I've found it a great tool in helping new(er) people in learning to use sights and it's instant feedback is great...But, I'm hard pressed to have ever seen an actual case or cases where the thing was used in an actual gun fight.
anyone heard of cases?
April 19th, 2008 09:16 PM
It's not that you are being ignored it's just that I have never heard of a laser mentioned in a SD case, and I bet not many other have either.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
April 19th, 2008 09:23 PM
I have one on my J frame but have not heard of any SD uses.
April 19th, 2008 09:25 PM
After years of reading and in talking to many others CHL types I have never hear of a civilian use of this either. But with that said, I'm sure LEO tactical and the military special ops and other entry teams most likely use them daily.
"Eternity is Too Long to be Wrong"
Texas CHL Instructor & Holder & Utah CFP Instructor
NRA Instructor & Life Member
Member TSRA, USCCA, TCHA
Christian, Heterosexual, Pro-2A, Pro-Life, Conservative, Common Sense American
April 20th, 2008 12:14 AM
Well trained ones dont.
Originally Posted by Ridgeline
I know of a few LEO shootings that the officers pistol was equipped, but never was turned on prior to shooting.
April 20th, 2008 12:45 AM
1943 - 2009
Todd Jarrett is a promoter of the laser sight. If they were used in any SD shootings, he'd probably know about them.
Welcome to Shooting Express
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
April 20th, 2008 01:00 AM
You might try the CT forum and ask there. http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php
April 20th, 2008 01:10 AM
I personally know a LEO who was shot at during a traffic stop. The BG got out of the car and took off running. My friend fired several shots as the BG was running and as he tells the story, the only thing he remembers is following the red dot as he squeezed off rounds. The BG ran behind a building and died from several gun shot wounds.
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!
"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell
April 20th, 2008 01:10 AM
From the LaserMax site:
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Tennessee
I have utilized my Lasermax twice in the past three months, once while I had to shoot out a suspect's tire as he was trying to run me over, and then on a felony pursuit/ stop where I almost had to fire at the driver. Being a firearms/SWAT instructor, I find your product among one of the best I have ever purchased. It is without a doubt the best aiming assist tool I have ever used, and helps greatly in instant target acquisition, and the physcological benefit is outstanding.
C. N. - Chief of Police Tennessee Police Dept.
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Kentucky
It made a believer out of me. It save at least one man's life, as he was charging me in a junk yard with his welding gear on and a metal pipe in hand! It was dark, and I don't know that he would have seen my Glock pointed at him, but without question he saw the Laser Max; he stopped cold,
dropped the pipe, and threw his hands in the air.
From a Law Enforcement Officer in Illinois
I was assigned to a "S.C.A.T.T." unit, which was a high-profile unit focusing on high-crime areas. I was partnered with another Officer and we responded to a report of a suspicious vehicle in a Housing Complex. My partner and I responded and found two white males sitting in a vehicle in the Housing Complex parking lot. The registration indicated the vehicle was stolen.
My partner and I exited our marked patrol unit and approached the suspect vehicle. The two male occupants of the vehicle looked at us and began reaching under the front seats of the suspect vehicle. My partner and I gave loud verbal commands, identifying ourselves as Police and ordering the two males to show us their hands. My partner and I had drawn our duty pistols, (Glock model 23's), when the two males began reaching under the front seat of the suspect vehicle.
The two males looked at my partner and me, and saw that we had our weapons pointed at them. It did not seem to faze them at all. After looking at us and seeing that we had our weapons pointed at them, while my partner and I continued to issue verbal commands to the two male suspects, they continued to reach under the front seat.
I activated my Lasermax sight as I continued to aim my pistol at the driver of the suspect vehicle. The only difference was, now there was a bright red pulsating dot on the center of the driver's chest. The driver finally noticed the dot, and it was like someone had thrown a switch in his brain. The driver's hands went up so high and so fast, I thought that he would punch through the roof of the vehicle. His cohort looked over to see what had caused his partner's reaction, and then he saw the dot. His reaction was identical to his partner's.
My partner and I were able to take both subjects into custody without further incident. I have to believe that it was in large part to the compliance factor induced directly by the suspect seeing the pulsating red dot on their own anatomy.
This incident occurred about six years ago, and I have used my Lasermax sight countless times since, numerous times on suspects in vehicles with weapons visible and accessible to the suspects. All of the suspects have been compliant when I activated my Lasermax laser sight. The response has been so positive that our Departmental Tactical Response Team has issued a Lasermax laser sight to all team members. A number of our Uniformed Patrol Officers have purchased their own Lasermax sights.
Illinois, Police Dept.
In July of this year while off duty I was involved in a deadly force confrontation with a man and your laser saved my life and the lives of others. I had gone to a restaurant to eat with my family when a man came in and kidnapped his ex-wife at gunpoint. Also present was his mother, his 6 year old son, and other patrons. With a crowded area this made the danger level that much more. I drew my weapon and activated the laser in one movement and ordered the man to drop the gun. He immediately pulled his ex-wife in front of him to use her as a shield and turned his gun on me. I had very little target area and knew there were at least 5 people in his line of fire including a small child. Had I not had your laser sight on my weapon the outcome would have been totally different. I would have never fired my weapon. He had covered at least 95% of his body by using his ex-wife as a shield but I was able to immediately acquire my only safe target without hesitation and fire. His right hip was exposed and I was able to successfully hit him in that area knocking him to the ground and disarming him. - Police Officer, AL
From a Civilian
My wife and I were returning to our van from Outback Steakhouse when a shady looking character came up on us. He said "I have a knife and I want your money". He had his hand in his back pocket but didn't produce a knife. My wife did what I have been teaching her, she dropped to the ground
as I drew my Sig Sauer P226 9mm with a Lasermax installed. I actually was able to activate the Lasermax at the same time I drew. I have been practicing this for sometime. I do not know for certain, but I do believe the Lasermax had a high intimidation factor and kept a bad situation from
turning worse. The Bad Guy decided we were not easy targets and took off.
And lots more... at LaserMax: Customer Stories/Expert Reviews
PS: I'm not a huge fan of the LaserMax products but haven't actually owned either brand yet - I'm thinking about trying out a pair of the CTC grips on my 1911. Being proficient with your iron sights is more important.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
- Margaret Mead
"Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch" - unknown
April 20th, 2008 04:35 AM
Law Enforcement officers who qualified with 85% - 90% hits on paper had hit numbers in actual street shooting/scenarios drop down to a mere 20%.
When a Crimson Trace laser sight was used the % of body hits on bad guys in actual scenarios went up to 90%.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
April 20th, 2008 08:46 AM
I like the LaserMax quotes. They are pretty meaningless. They are from no-named people about no-named incidents, in no-named places. In short, they can't be verified.
Take the stories given. The first is from a supposed police chief...like that adds credibility to the story. Given that police chiefs are rarely in shootouts (because they do more administrative work), you gotta figure he is a podunk chief.
The third story mentions how the LaserMax sight had no effect on the bad guys until the driver finally noticed. That is a real problem with the sights. They have to be noticed to be effective.
Given that the shootings and police incidents are ALL matters of public record, I don't know why all these stories would be annonymous, dates, and locations kept clandestine. I just don't trust such endorsements as endorsements that can't be verified are of no more value than the seller's hype.
Last edited by Double Naught Spy; April 20th, 2008 at 02:15 PM.
Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.
April 20th, 2008 09:30 AM
April 21st, 2008 05:58 AM
The ONLY 'story' I can add is my neighbor (LEO) loves his laser/light on his duty sidearm (SF X200 I think). He likes it due to the fact that drawing on a suspect he'll "run' the laser down said suspects face, forcing him to 'notice'. He says this has cut way down on his chasing down BG's through the woods and back allys.
He HATES running!
I love myCT laser grip and it's a great 'lil tool, but I don't 'rely' on it.....
and if advertised 'stories' can't be verified, don't rely 'em.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
April 21st, 2008 12:11 PM
Source for this information?
Originally Posted by QKShooter
Curious, somewhat skeptical, and definitely taking it with a grain of salt.
April 21st, 2008 12:45 PM
The instructor for the tactical pistol class I took this last weekend had one on his S&W M&P 9mm. I think he had it on there more for evaluation than as an aid. I've trained with him before, and he definately does not need one....he can empty the gun into a 3-4" circle at high ROF from 7 yds. I tried his gun out at the end of class, and the laser seemed to help on target aqcuisition on the initial shot, but during subsequent shots, its not much easier than finding the front sight during a normal drill. IMO, it would definately not help during hammer drills where you get 1 sight picture and rapid pull the trigger twice.
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