What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers. - Page 2

What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers.

This is a discussion on What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am not a legal scholar nor am I a prosecutor. But I believe I would probably have some legal problems if I pulled out ...

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Thread: What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers.

  1. #16
    New Member Array USMC 1975's Avatar
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    I am not a legal scholar nor am I a prosecutor. But I believe I would probably have some legal problems if I pulled out my carry and shot one or both of them. I may have been able to skate on the shooting by using the theory that the wine bottle was a weapon. But even then, lethal force against two unarmed people ? Dang, I do not know if I would want to roll the dice on that one.

    I probably would have tried to very smoothly talk myself out of an A*# whipping.

    One of the other members hit the nail on the head. This video is very good training for CCWer's as this is the type of incident that more then likely we would encounter while carrying.

    So many of us think its going to be a BG with a machette or machine gun coming for us, but in reality its more then likely going to be an unarmed psycho who is having a bad day and wants to beat you silly. This is why I am thinking more and more about carrying a small bottle of mace in my mag pouch.

    I still say your going to have a rough time in court shooting an unarmed person if that ever happens. So watching this video and applying some good ole " what would I do if that was me " may be a good thing for us all to learn from.

    Thanks for posting this video BTW. It has me thinking about my response if it was me.

    Chris


  2. #17
    Member Array TerryD's Avatar
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    I'd probably be in jail if it was me.
    "Nice grips, weird choice of etching" Rocky

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    2 on 1 qualifies as a disparity of force. Video of me laying on the C-store floor getting stomped on then dropping them both will be good enough for me.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I'm disabled with a spinal cord injury i can't run or backup or fight,somebody wants to attack me after i've apologised for whatever they think i did and they might get the first hit then i double tap em,
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  5. #20
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    So... You figure you can sustain a couple good punches from each thug, and after you fall to the floor a couple head stomps from one, and rib kicks from the other....

    ...and THEN you will be functional enough to draw your weapon and shoot em?

    What's plan "B"?

    Seriously, a few years back I got punched 5 times in the nose, within probably 3 sec, ONE guy.... and while I didn't go down, I never got a punch in. If he pursued the attack for another 5 seconds rather than ripping my PANTS off me for my wallet, I could not have done a thing about it.

    And he was probably 3 inches shorter than me and 60 pounds lighter.

    If your plan is to survive a beat down and THEN shoot somebody, I think you need a new plan.

    Unless you are young, fit, have no chronic injuries, and regularly train for H2H... if you go down, don't underestimate how ONE guy can ruin you. If you have all those going for you, he STILL might ruin you.


    --Travis--

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I don't know, I have never been in that particular situation. I have however been in situations where there was more than one item/person/animal assaulting me at the same time, and have been able to focus on what needed to be done to stop it, then tend to my injuries.

    I sure as am not going to curl up into a ball and scream like a little girl.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    I think most of us here can not accurately predict what we may do if we found ourselves in that situation, because we likely would not find ourselves in that situation.

    This kid obviously had no intention of defending himself, he is not like anyone who frequents a forum like this. More probable, is that he frequents the brady bunch's web-forums. He just stood there, with this Long guy in his face, hoping his explanation would make them go away. It even looked like he had his hands in his pockets. I know what was in his head, I used to be like that.. a scared little sheep. However, I learned that lesson many many years ago and will never let someone directly in front of me sucker-punch me ever again.

  8. #23
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    Its on and they proved it by following you into the store and stepping up.
    One aggressive move is just cause for another aggressive move, but yours must be more sudden and explosively violent.

    I have been in a fight with two other people at the same time that wanted to hurt me. The first one steps up and you whack him hard enough to startle the other. A whack in the nose will cause most people to lose vision for a couple of seconds, you then proceed to the second guy who will now be on the defensive. You attack him with the intention of killing him with your bare hands...any less effort is unacceptable. You then do what you must. Hands,feet, elbows,knees,canned food, whatever is at your disposal. You must think fast because mere seconds can be the difference between winning and losing.

    If you expect to lose this fight....then you have already lost.
    Its as much about mindset as it is physical ability. I had made the determination that even if I got beat to a pulp that they would at least remember it.

    As it turned out, I won and other than two bruised fists, I was none the worst for wear. After the first one hit the ground, the other wanted no part of it and left. I filled out a witness statement for the Police, talked to them for awhile and went home...where I was so wound up that I couldn't sleep until the next day.

    As for feeling pain in a fight, I never have. I get too wound up. Its the next morning that I feel like I have been run over by a freight train.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #24
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    I think those are the keys.

    Mindset, condition yellow awareness, and seizing the initiative.
    Action beats REaction.

    When you see that violence is about to ensue, do NOT wait for someone else to initiate. You may not get another chance.

    I've been bushwacked quite successfully when I was in "white", and without adequate mindset.

    When I was WITH mindset, in condition orange, and I attacked FIRST.... I escaped without injury. Twelve attackers and, no, I did not have a firearm that time.

    Badguys don't come looking for a "fair fight". Don't try to give them one.

    --Travis--

  10. #25
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    I think those are the keys.

    Mindset, condition yellow awareness, and seizing the initiative.
    Action beats REaction.

    When you see that violence is about to ensue, do NOT wait for someone else to initiate. You may not get another chance.

    I've been bushwacked quite successfully when I was in "white", and without adequate mindset.

    When I was WITH mindset, in condition orange, and I attacked FIRST.... I escaped without injury. Twelve attackers and, no, I did not have a firearm that time.

    Badguys don't come looking for a "fair fight". Don't try to give them one.

    --Travis--
    This is interesting to note. In the video, the BG says that he didnt throw the first punch. How important is that? Does it matter?

    Would the police say, "no, you didnt throw the first punch, the victim did. However, he felt threatened by you and your buddy."

    Legally, is it ok to "throw the first punch"?

    I would say that under teh circumstances, it should be legal.
    "...trying to get a long gun into play while someone is all over you like a monkey eating a cupcake is not very conducive to good survival techniques." ~Bark'n

  11. #26
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Have you seen videos of thugs getting right up in someone's face, arms wide out, yelling, trash talking, "mad dogging", etc?

    This is not "having a disagreement" or some such rot, this is pre-attack behavior to either work themselves up to the attack, or provoke the victim (also known as the sucker) into hitting, shoving first, or retreating and being seen to do so by witnesses who aren't really paying attention. Is the guy pointedly looking around? (for witnesses) Is he refusing to look you in the eye? (because you are meat) Is he spitting? (in contempt or because his mouth is dry) All... pre-attack cues.

    Ability Opportunity and intent are the main features I constantly read about in legal self defense articles. You may be on a physical par with the other guy, but if he has a weapon, or simply attacks first, you are at a tremendous disadvantage. "Disparity of force" is an overworked phrase, it SHOULD be sufficient but it is not the only factor in defining an aggressor's ability.

    The fact that your attacker is not King Kong does not mean mean you are obliged to give him the first punch, stab, or eye gouge for free. You do NOT know the other guy's abilities, and IMHO if you remain in condition white because a rager is shorter than you, you may learn a lesson real quick.

    As an aside, I know one guy who is 6'7" and he is routinely abused by his 5'2" wife. She even stabbed him with a 10" chef's knife in the chest, to the HILT!

    ANYBODY has ability.

    I got MY posterior handed to me by a guy who was probably 5'7", and 160 lbs... The other time, by CHILDREN who were probably no more than 15! (with a 4x4, I think)

    Lesson: I was in white, and I underestimated their ability.

    The immediate proximity is Opportunity, and Intent can be evidenced by either words, demenour or actions.

    The deadliest encounters I ever had, there was no discussion, no "arguing", no "stick em up" chit chat. We all knew what we were there for.

    Nice people don't stand nose to nose with you and scream in your face. People with honest intentions do not flank you, try to distract you while their buddy gets behind you. Friendly people do not play, "what are YOU looking at, -blank-hole?"

    Also, to put it bluntly, in urban settings I have not found that other men spontaneously start conversations with strangers, they have no business with, unless they want to get lucky, or to lull the other guy while they get close enough for the sucker punch.

    Defending your actions after the fact is important. You should be able to clearly articulate why you (and any sane observant person) would view the bad guy as an imminent threat to your life. But if you fail to assess the cues, and fail to act in time you'll be doing your after action review laying on the floor, or in a hospital bed... if you're lucky.

    --Travis--

  12. #27
    Senior Moderator
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    Legally, is it ok to "throw the first punch"?
    You arent going to wait for someone to fire the first shot are you ?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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  13. #28
    Member Array PShooter's Avatar
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    I'll toss in a couple of points. When carrying a firearm, you have a greater reason and even a duty to avoid a fistfight versus when you are not packing. Your hesitation to use your firearm because you are trying to evaluate if those two (or one, or three, or whatever) opponents (who at the moment SEEM to be unarmed) are going to do you bodily harm, could very well get you in deep kimchee due to the fact that a fight can escalate so fast that you may just get your pop-gun taken away from you in a real world fistfight (which can easily turn into a grappling match and go to the ground). Now you really are in deep kimchee. Well, you got your legal justification now that they have a gun but you don't have much of a tactical advantage anymore. My point is, if you perceive that the unarmed opponent(s) are threatening enough to take your gun away from you, you may legally be justified in the threat of and use of deadly force to keep control of the situation and thus your weapon. Others on here could probably shed better light on the legalities of this because I am sure that it varies quite a bit from state to state. Once again, this situation could require a very expensive lawyer bill to clean up for you afterwards even though it could legally be justifiable. The legal thing is always secondary to living, but it is good to realize that one little gas station altercation could have paid for an entire home mortgage, if you do walk away from it!

    The next point that I will add expands on the point I made above.
    No matter how tough you are, or how tough you think you are, there is always someone tougher out there. And even if you truly are a bad, bad man, it is oh so easy to get sucker punched / cold-cocked / stabbed or even shot from an unseen opponent and it's game over. It is tough to keep our egos in check and many of us are testosterone driven males (who, me?) but being humble can keep us out of trouble. Now and then I purposely remind myself of what it feels like to have a hook landed to my temple or a jab to the nose. Then, as that pleasant reality check sinks in, I imagine how a gunfight would have to be many times scarrier and more traumatic than a fistfight (especially if I got shot). I've never been in a gunfight, thank God, but I will attempt to keep it that way by using my brain. If you have never been in a fistfight or had some form of defensive or martial arts training, then just remember a time in grade school when someone nailed you in the nose with a dodgeball or whatever and it will help you realize you REALLY don't want that!

  14. #29
    Member Array BENZIN's Avatar
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    whenever I go into a steal your money for gas store or any store I always try to keep track of stuff like.
    1. exits/ fire could break out or a problem that you wouldnt be able to go the front .
    2. tools for defense/ just about every store has some type of whare you can use for non leathal to leathal force
    3.camo/ how is the store that you enter laid out can you hide or take cover behind stuff .
    4.people/ what type of people are around the store
    Im sure more experenced folk could come up with a better list just something I always try to keep in my mind

  15. #30
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC 1975 View Post
    I am not a legal scholar nor am I a prosecutor. But I believe I would probably have some legal problems if I pulled out my carry and shot one or both of them. I may have been able to skate on the shooting by using the theory that the wine bottle was a weapon. But even then, lethal force against two unarmed people ? Dang, I do not know if I would want to roll the dice on that one.
    Chris

    I respectfully disagree, the law does not say lethal force is authorized to prevent ARMed assualt or injury. If 1 or 2, or 3 or 4etc...are intent on kicking my arse and I cannot diffuse the situation with my charm and sweet personality. I will not roll around on the ground and fight with some idiot(s) that being stupid...Thats what young people USED to do before everything went to guns and drive-bys...

    That said your probably still right in what you said.

    Lawyers in Court: "Why did you have to shoot both of these UNARMED law abiding christian young men, they weren't even armed for god's sake!!!!!"
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

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