What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers.

This is a discussion on What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by PShooter I'll toss in a couple of points. When carrying a firearm, you have a greater reason and even a duty to ...

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Thread: What would you do? Accosted and attacked by road ragers.

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PShooter View Post
    I'll toss in a couple of points. When carrying a firearm, you have a greater reason and even a duty to avoid a fistfight versus when you are not packing. Your hesitation to use your firearm because you are trying to evaluate if those two (or one, or three, or whatever) opponents (who at the moment SEEM to be unarmed) are going to do you bodily harm, could very well get you in deep kimchee due to the fact that a fight can escalate so fast that you may just get your pop-gun taken away from you in a real world fistfight (which can easily turn into a grappling match and go to the ground). Now you really are in deep kimchee. Well, you got your legal justification now that they have a gun but you don't have much of a tactical advantage anymore. My point is, if you perceive that the unarmed opponent(s) are threatening enough to take your gun away from you, you may legally be justified in the threat of and use of deadly force to keep control of the situation and thus your weapon. Others on here could probably shed better light on the legalities of this because I am sure that it varies quite a bit from state to state. Once again, this situation could require a very expensive lawyer bill to clean up for you afterwards even though it could legally be justifiable. The legal thing is always secondary to living, but it is good to realize that one little gas station altercation could have paid for an entire home mortgage, if you do walk away from it!

    The next point that I will add expands on the point I made above.
    No matter how tough you are, or how tough you think you are, there is always someone tougher out there. And even if you truly are a bad, bad man, it is oh so easy to get sucker punched / cold-cocked / stabbed or even shot from an unseen opponent and it's game over. It is tough to keep our egos in check and many of us are testosterone driven males (who, me?) but being humble can keep us out of trouble. Now and then I purposely remind myself of what it feels like to have a hook landed to my temple or a jab to the nose. Then, as that pleasant reality check sinks in, I imagine how a gunfight would have to be many times scarrier and more traumatic than a fistfight (especially if I got shot). I've never been in a gunfight, thank God, but I will attempt to keep it that way by using my brain. If you have never been in a fistfight or had some form of defensive or martial arts training, then just remember a time in grade school when someone nailed you in the nose with a dodgeball or whatever and it will help you realize you REALLY don't want that!
    This hits the nail right on the head, in my view. (Sorry to quote the whole thing but I am computer-tech challenged and just do emails and Google searches. It was a miracle that I got the USMC avatar up today on my first try, and then it was only because it was one that was selected from this site's menu.)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    "Before you kill me for something I didn't do, whatever it is you think I
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Two of them, bigger than me and obviously nut jobs to get this angry over being cut off in traffic. As soon as they confronted me in an angry or potentially violent manner my hand would have been on my gun ready to draw. If that didn't stop them, and it probably would have, my next move would be determined by them. I would say nothing more than my initial apology.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Yup

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    I think those are the keys.

    Mindset, condition yellow awareness, and seizing the initiative.
    Action beats REaction.

    When you see that violence is about to ensue, do NOT wait for someone else to initiate. You may not get another chance.

    I've been bushwacked quite successfully when I was in "white", and without adequate mindset.

    When I was WITH mindset, in condition orange, and I attacked FIRST.... I escaped without injury. Twelve attackers and, no, I did not have a firearm that time.

    Badguys don't come looking for a "fair fight". Don't try to give them one.

    --Travis--
    I agree with this 100%. I think it was Clint Smith who once said, if you're fighting "fair" your tactics suck.

    This is a prime example of why it is good to layer your self defense with other less than lethal means. I always carry one of these: The IMPACT KERAMBIT. I have trained on this with my Aikido sensei quite a bit. But there are other products on this page that would be just as useful with less training. Self Defense - Shomer-Tec Inc.

    Btw, I had this sort of thing happen to me once on the road, between Gainesville and Lake City about a 45 min trip. It was really dark and rainy to boot. I was creeping along in the dark trying to stay out of an accident when suddenly I look in my rear view mirror and see nothing but GRILLE. Some tractor trailer driver got PO'ed about something and used me as the object of his rage. He proceeded to try and deliberately run me off the road! I'm with my wife and our dogs at this point in a Kia mini-van.

    The interstate is dark and fairly lightly traveled which was probably the weather. This guy stays just inches away from my bumper while constantly laying on the horn. I try but there is no way to outrun his rig and stay alive on the slick road. He backs off and comes zooming at me across four lanes shearing off at the last moment. I'm armed with a Glock M27 40 and a high cap mag but what good is it against a semi? The cab is too high to get an angle for any sort of shot from my vehicle.

    My wife tells me to take an exit without signaling at the last moment. I do this and he can't stop in time. Then we take back roads the rest of the way while we report the incident to FHP. I tell you, I was one very shaken high school teacher at that point. I had never felt quite so helpless. I wonder how many folks have met this particular psycho and lived to tell the tale?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #35
    Member Array firestarplus's Avatar
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    As soon as the first one got into my space (meaning punching distance) it would have been on. It is a decision you have to make well before someone gets into your space. You have to analyze their pace, apparent attitude, demeanor, etc... and make an early call. I would have smashed the first one and went after the second without hesitation. Of course it might have not gone that way and I would end up on the floor taking a worse beating for really #&*()$@ them off but hey, you gotta go for it

  7. #36
    Member Array exprt9's Avatar
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    While I was trying to pass a slow moving vehicle in front of me, the guy behind me was making the same move at the same instant and tried to pass me. He tried to cut me off once we got clear of the other car by passing me on the left side after I slowed down for a traffic light and cars in front of me already stopped. He shouted profanities, told me I cut him off and gave me a one finger salute. I noticed that there were three other men in his car. I had my wife in the passenger side and I also had two other female friends in the back seat. I rolled down the passenger side window just enough and apologized that I did not mean to cut him off. He continued with his verbal assault and I just looked straight, both hands on the steering wheel and I completely ignored him while using my peripheral vision to observe if any of them are making an aggressive move. They finally left after they realized that I did not get intimidated with the verbal abuse. Whew!

    It might have been a lot different if I was alone! Only God knows what might have been the outcome. Four against one???
    Freedom isn't free! Don't ever take it forgranted!

  8. #37
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Miller View Post
    It sure pays to watch how you drive!!
    Exactly.

    The situation could've been avoided if the victim had used enough common sense to fill up when he got down to a quarter of a tank, rather than procrastinate until he's "running on fumes". Not to mention that being low on gas doesn't give him the right to drive like an idiot and cut people off.

    I'm not excusing the actions of the attackers. They'll be dealt with by the courts. An assault and battery conviction won't look good on their records, when they try to apply for new jobs in the future.

    As for how I'd deal with this situation, it would have to be diffused quickly. I think I'd say something like "Hey, I'm really sorry guys. I didn't see you and didn't mean to cut you off. Can I buy you each a soda or beer?"

    Just making a verbal apology isn't going to cut it. The perps were looking to give him a beatdown, regardless of what he said. But if you offer to buy them each a soda or beer, IMO they'd be a lot more likely to view that as an acceptable apology.

  9. #38
    Member Array albundy's Avatar
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    pay at the pump

    always pay at the pump, its quicker. i only go inside if i have to take a whiz.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    one lesson here: Be aware that you will be taped on grainy security video. Whatever is seen will be used in your favor/against you. USe clear gestures showing that you are not "out to kill" but try to de-escalate. These days, you have to do it for the video as much as for the other guy.

  11. #40
    New Member Array HeWhoShoots's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I understand something that has been repeated a few times in this thread. Given this particular instance...what does it matter if he went inside or not? How would have staying at the pump have helped matters any? Perhaps the pumps were empty and he went inside for witnesses?

    Looked like the video was edited, we didn't see it from the start. From what I could see though, there was one guy with a cell phone and he made an aggressive move against the "BGs" and that set them off.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    As much as we all try to be courteous drivers, form time to time we all make mistakes and cut some one off. If I notice that I did, I always try to make some kind of gesture to let the other driver know, Im sorry.

    From the video it looked to me like this poor guy did not have much choice. These BGs where all over him, and even having a pistol concealed would not have done him much good.


    If it was me:

    Reflexes from open hand training, and handgun training that teaches to back up in side steps, I hope would allow me some space to draw my pistol.

  13. #42
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albundy View Post
    always pay at the pump, its quicker. i only go inside if i have to take a whiz.
    What exactly would've prevented the perps from walking up to the gas pump area and giving the victim a beatdown?!

    Inside the store, the victim had a clerk and other customers as eyewitnesses, as well as a security camera to record the attack. The attack happened quickly and was over within a few seconds, but if the attack had gone on longer, others in the store would've been able to intervene in the victim's behalf. The victim may not have been so lucky if he had been outside.

  14. #43
    Member Array mortpes's Avatar
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    Avoid a shooting by increasing situational awareness, avoid confrontations, avoid exchanges.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm too old to fight...
    If Stan Long had attacked me...after a warning to stay back...he would have to change his name to Long Gone...

    Attacking a 60 year old?
    Two on one?
    Disparity of force?
    Fear for my life?

    Stan Long has his name legally changed to Long Gone?

    ************************************************** ****************************

    Actually had something similar happen to me many months ago. The wife was with me...I may have cut someone off, although I don't think I did. Two guys started throwing profanities at me in a gas station...I just ignored them, but kept my 'view' of them without making eye contact while I filled my gas tank. They eventually drove out of the gas station. I felt that it would have been stupid to engage them or throw insults back. Never turned into a problem.
    I forget who said this but the quote went something like this:
    "Never pick a fight with an old man, he'll just kill you"
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeWhoShoots View Post
    I'm not sure I understand something that has been repeated a few times in this thread. Given this particular instance...what does it matter if he went inside or not? How would have staying at the pump have helped matters any? Perhaps the pumps were empty and he went inside for witnesses?

    Looked like the video was edited, we didn't see it from the start. From what I could see though, there was one guy with a cell phone and he made an aggressive move against the "BGs" and that set them off.
    In MS my truck is an extension of my home and we have a castle doctrine. If I'm just getting gas and was attacked, I could defend my self with all my means!!
    We are also protected from civil suits!
    One punch is all it takes for them to get the upper hand.
    If these two guys run up to me( inside 20 yards) at my truck I'm drawing! You better put something in your hand, the fight has already started,you just don't know it yet
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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