"Causing" a lethal situation? - Page 2

"Causing" a lethal situation?

This is a discussion on "Causing" a lethal situation? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So you give the BG your money, or your car, or whatever he wants, and that will guarantee you remain alive and well?? Not much ...

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Thread: "Causing" a lethal situation?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    So you give the BG your money, or your car, or whatever he wants, and that will guarantee you remain alive and well??

    Not much of a plan!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan


  2. #17
    Ron
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    From reading these posts, I think that the distinction we are discussing is clear. If you are physically confronted and the BG demands you hand over your property, you have a right to use deadly force if you are in reasonable fear for your life or serious physical injury, which I believe you almost always would be.

    On the other hand, if you have handed over your wallet and the BG is now running away, or it is the middle of the night and you look out the winddow and see a BG running away with the radio from your car he broke into, in those cases I don't believe the law in most states would permit you to shoot him in the back as he is in the act of escaping with your property.

    Ron
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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    Let's sat it's 0200, and you look out your window and see some miscreant stealing your hubcaps. No person is under threat in this scenario, and if you go out to confront him, then you are the one initiating the confrontation.
    I see this as choosing to be a victim. No, I'm not going to take aim out my window and shoot. But I am going to confront him. Not with force. If he chooses to escalate it from there, it's his own fault, and I will respond with proper force.

    I like the law in WA better...someone commits any felony against you (GTA anyone?) and you're in the right to shoot.
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  4. #19
    Ron
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    I know that what I am about to write goes against what a lot of other members here believe, but I carry a gun for one purpose and one purpose only: to protect myself and my family from being killed or suffering serious physical injury. And I am not about to intentionally create a confrontation that I know or have reason to know could escalate to the point where I might have to take a life.

    If anyone wishes to construe this as giving the streets over to the thugs, well then so be it.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I know that what I am about to write goes against what a lot of other members here believe, but I carry a gun for one purpose and one purpose only: to protect myself and my family from being killed or suffering serious physical injury. And I am not about to intentionally create a confrontation that I know or have reason to know could escalate to the point where I might have to take a life.

    If anyone wishes to construe this as giving the streets over to the thugs, well then so be it.

    Ron
    I agree here. I do not desire a confrontation, and I go out of my way to avoid situations that could LEAD to such...
    Today's potential 'legal' knots could leave you spending a ton of money just trying to explain why you HAD to shoot someone.
    That said, I also don't believe for a second, that giving in to some dirtbag's 'request' makes anyone's problem either safer, or perhaps, go away. Crime today is becoming increasingly violent...your life could be taken in an instant, even after compliance...

    Tough choices could be in your future...

    Stay armed...stay cognizant, always...stay safe!


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  6. #21
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    I do not believe in "causing" a confrontation either, but if I am accosted by someone who is attempting to rob me, I am not causing a confrontation. I am responding to a legitimate threat to my safety.

  7. #22
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    If somebody is robbing me it's not like they are stealing my lawnmower out of my yard,at that point their is a threat of comply or you will be hurt or killed ,there is a big difference,I work hard for what i got just to turn it over to some POS that doesn't.I will shoot to defend what i got cause if you're stealing my lawnmower you're in my house
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  8. #23
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    Let's sat it's 0200, and you look out your window and see some miscreant stealing your hubcaps. No person is under threat in this scenario, and if you go out to confront him, then you are the one initiating the confrontation.
    I would calmly call 911. Then I would take my 30-30 off the rifle rack, and quietly open the window. I would fire when I had a clear shot.

    Warning? No, you don't get a warning from me. The BG got a warning when they passed a law that you couldn't steal other people's property.

    Criminal Mischief During the Nighttime and theft During the Nighttime are both grounds for lethal force.(In Texas)

    Lesson to be learned...if you are going to steal Kerbouchard's hubcaps, you better hope you do it quietly enough to avoid waking me or my dogs.

    Just kidding, I would probably use my 995 carbine...If I have to have a weapon confiscated I would prefer they take it. Maybe I should get a bow and arrow?
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  9. #24
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    .
    That said, I also don't believe for a second, that giving in to some dirtbag's 'request' makes anyone's problem either safer, or perhaps, go away. Crime today is becoming increasingly violent...your life could be taken in an instant, even after compliance...

    Tough choices could be in your future...

    Stay armed...stay cognizant, always...stay safe!


    Hey, Ron...'got Ultra?'...
    I agree. Don't anyone misunderstand what I meant by my post. If I am physically confronted by a thug, I will not hesitate for a second in using my gun to defend myself or my family if I feel that we are at risk.

    Hey Ken, Ultra ordered.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  10. #25
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    I was just Stationed in Oxnard, CA and had to drive to SD every week or so. when I retired I couldn't put LA in my rear view fast enough.

    If I remember the term correctly CA is a "Duty to Retreat" state. You are required to Run and or Hide if a crime happens. If a BG breaks in your front door you are REQUIRED to leave through the back. Heaven Help you if you shoot a BG there. That is why I now live in FL where I have the right to self defense and it is in the law that anyone breaking into my car or house is trying to do me bodily harm.

    Warning shots: in Gutmachers guide (FL law) If BG clains you just showed up and started waiving a gun, "he is the inncoent victim" and wins in court, it is a mandatory 10 year sentence for you for the presence of a firearm, if the firearm is discharged (Warning Shot) it becomes a mandatory 20 year sentence if the BG wins. If you are going to reach the point you have to show your weapon, you had better have a good reason and a warning shot is total BS. And then it is off to the 911 races. Because BG WILL clain he was the innocent poor little victim of the big meanie. Also if you are near Wally World, Target, or most gas stations always look around for cameras, they could be your best friend after you call 911. I usually look for the cameras as I go into a shopping center or choose a parking space.
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  11. #26
    Member Array chuck brick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadeye72 View Post
    I'm not handing over anything unless it is to buy me a little time to draw and diffuse the situation. Castle Doctrine Rocks.
    There's more to the wallet than just $20. There's ID theft, your address, maybe pictures of your wife/kids (and the address) - for most people, your life is in the wallet. I would absolutely shoot someone for trying to take my wallet/car keys/$20. I'm not the one that suddenly decided that their life was worth 20 bucks, they are. I'm just playing their game, by their rules, and if they lose they should have played a different game. If I do give them what they want, they may well see this as weakness on my part/dominance victory on theirs. Then there's no telling how far that could escalate, depending on the mood of the perpetrator.
    Sorry to sound so harsh, but I'm quite serious. I didn't make the decision to carry so I could financially support criminals; I carry because I believe they should be stopped, and although I hope never to have to "rehab" a POS neither will I choose to enhance their carreers.

    Stay safe,

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  12. #27
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I know that what I am about to write goes against what a lot of other members here believe, but I carry a gun for one purpose and one purpose only: to protect myself and my family from being killed or suffering serious physical injury. And I am not about to intentionally create a confrontation that I know or have reason to know could escalate to the point where I might have to take a life.

    If anyone wishes to construe this as giving the streets over to the thugs, well then so be it.

    Ron
    I understand the distinction between an immediate threat to life &/or limb, and a future threat, but given the scenario I believe you are addressing (0200, BG stealing hub caps), my feeling is that by refusing to confront said BG, you are giving him and all of his buddies the idea that your property is a safe target. This will dramatically increase the chances that he or his buddies will come back for more 'stuff', and he may not stick with things that are outside this time. I mean, you have clearly trained him to believe that, even if he doesn't get what he came for, he is not under any threat of harm if he shows up again.

    I also understand that some states & localities would frown on my way of thinking (i.e. they would throw me in jail for acting in accordance with my beliefs). I'm just not so sure that I care... If a BG is stealing my property, he is 'attacking' me. I have given some irreplaceable portion of my life to earn the money to purchase that property, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let a BG steal any portion of my life unopposed.

    I expect many to disagree with me - I just don't care.

    Having said all that - I of course follow & comply completely with any and all laws, rules, & regulations controlling the jurisdiction in which I live...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    If a BG is stealing my property, he is 'attacking' me. I have given some irreplaceable portion of my life to earn the money to purchase that property, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let a BG steal any portion of my life unopposed.
    I think the point was that such a stand can cost 10000 times what simple loss of insured property can, beyond the aggravation and invasive nature of defending an action.

    For what it's worth, I agree with both of you. I don't want to be targeted, and I'll do what I can to avoid that, but I generally choose to do so via elimination of options for the BG instead of direct confrontation. I also don't want to have my next 10yrs spent paying down lawsuits that didn't need to happen, when (as some have suggested) the situation could have been handled differently. I'll be damned if I will run for cover for fear of living my life at my property in my manner, but I won't do it blindly in the mistaken belief that all's well in the world and will turn out as planned simply because I want it to be.

    I expect many to disagree with me - I just don't care.
    It's not a matter of agreeing or not. That's not the goal. It's a matter of tomayto/tomahto. To each his own. The goal is: increased understanding, and folks will have different take-away gems from every discussion. It's just that those gems will vary depending on the person and situation. That's the beauty of dialog ... it goes both ways.
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  14. #29
    Member Array TerryD's Avatar
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    Interesting subject. Me, my wife, and daughter a few days ago just went over the robbery in the street/take my wallet scenario.

    I told them if something like this does happen, especially if one of them has a weapon of some sort on them. I will offer up my wallet, and when attention in on my wallet and not me, that all they need to do is drop to the ground so I can get a clear shot.

    It's feels odd talking about these kind of things, as they are pretty gruesome, but it's necessary. I just hope to God it never happens.
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  15. #30
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I think the point was that such a stand can cost 10000 times what simple loss of insured property can, beyond the aggravation and invasive nature of defending an action.

    For what it's worth, I agree with both of you. I don't want to be targeted, and I'll do what I can to avoid that, but I generally choose to do so via elimination of options for the BG instead of direct confrontation. I also don't want to have my next 10yrs spent paying down lawsuits that didn't need to happen, when (as some have suggested) the situation could have been handled differently. I'll be damned if I will run for cover for fear of living my life at my property in my manner, but I won't do it blindly in the mistaken belief that all's well in the world and will turn out as planned simply because I want it to be.


    It's not a matter of agreeing or not. That's not the goal. It's a matter of tomayto/tomahto. To each his own. The goal is: increased understanding, and folks will have different take-away gems from every discussion. It's just that those gems will vary depending on the person and situation. That's the beauty of dialog ... it goes both ways.
    Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been. By "confront", I mean that I would basically do something that was more "active" than hiding under my bed and calling 911. I'll do something that I believe I can justify in court depending on my current jurisdiction. That could vary between making some kind of noise to simply try to scare the BG off, to actually confronting him with arms if I were in TX. I will do my best to demonstrate that his current activity is much riskier than he'd like it to be, and that I won't be backing down should he decide to escalate the situation.

    This miscommunication is my fault. I used the term "confront" a bit more broadly than most would understand it and I apologize. I knew what I meant, but I didn't convey that very well, and since the whole point of posting is to convey my meaning, I messed up. Hopefully this cleared it up a little?
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

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