5:30 on a Sunday evening

This is a discussion on 5:30 on a Sunday evening within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Don't be too concerned about not responding to a situation with preplanned military like precision. I've had three time where I had to grab for ...

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Thread: 5:30 on a Sunday evening

  1. #46
    Member Array bcvojak's Avatar
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    Don't be too concerned about not responding to a situation with preplanned military like precision. I've had three time where I had to grab for a firearm (no shots fired) and after each time my second thought was: "My tactics really sucked. . . What was I thinking!"

    But I learned from my errors and never repeated the same mistake twice.
    Somewhere in the Pacific NW

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  3. #47
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Glad you are ok. Maybe he will pass the message to his buddys. Don't go to that crazy guys house! At least you won't have to worry about door to door salesmen.

  4. #48
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    Saw the neighbor outside as I was finishing up mowing. I went over and asked him if he saw that guy Saturday night. I didn't say anything about what I knew--I wanted to hear his version first.

    He said, "Man, that guy must've been on something. He was really acting weird. I never did figure out what he was selling. And if you're going to be a salesman, it would help to dress the part, you know, clean up and get rid of the big earrings."

    I relayed a little of my version, leaving out the part where I thought I might have to draw on the weirdo. None of the neighbors know I carry, and I'll keep it that way.

    I never even considered drugs. I don't work around anyone who does drugs, and I guess I've lost focus of what's available today as far as drugs. I did relay the neighbor's story to the wife. She says the neighbor considered drugs because he's quite a bit younger than me. Anyway, I wanted the wife to know I wasn't the only one who thought scruffy dude was a danger.

    Now, if I can only remember tomorrow to call City Hall and get the "No Sales" sign they give out.

  5. #49
    Member Array WilliamWallace's Avatar
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    i think you did well, you trusted your instincts.

    this is the part that i find most disturbing:

    "Her: “You scare yourself sometimes.”

    Me: “What you saw was EXACTLY how people get robbed in broad daylight. Someone comes up pretending to be friendly, and then they rob or worse.”

    Her: “You’re not friendly.”"

    Why don't they get it? My wife is the same way. "Oh you're paranoid..."

    Geez it ticks me off... she'll be the first one singing your praises the day you save her, as will be mine. My mother is the same way. Complains about the airlines and the security we have to go through when in reality she would be the first to complain if my daughter, her granddaughter, died in a terrorist attack on a plain...

    I just don't get it.

  6. #50
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    What ever happened to the days when someone selling door-to-door actually looked clean cut, presentable and socially acceptable?

    Grady, I think what you did was acceptable, if not out right appropriate for the circumstance.

    Sure we can always play things differently, and each time with a good outcome. However play it wrong just once and it's all bad!

    The thing is... "you never know!"

    On one hand... by the way you repeatedly described his hand movements, I would tend to look at that being a distinct possibility (and I underscore that it is only a possibility) that the guy is either "tweaking" (as in high on meth) or exhibiting some "pre-assaultive" cues (as in he's nervous, building up courage, and trying to decide when and how to make his move).

    Either way, the body behavior that you described, would have raised red flags in me as well. Call it precognition or whatever, it just doesn't sit well with me and puts me on alert!

    On the other hand... It doesn't take a lot of research to know that "the door-to-door" salesman's pitch is frequently used as a ruse to disguise a variety of nefarious intent. Often used to case houses, see who is at home during certain times of the day, whether you have security lighting, or lots of bushes to provide ambush concealment and lots of other things.

    Then without warning, he makes a furtive movement which would definitely cause me to be teetering from condition orange to red.

    Certainly he got your point and decided to move on.

    The big thing is, I wouldn't have left home right then... or... I would have driven a few blocks away and returned about 4 or 5 minutes later to see if he was back at your home again, either casing it further or actually breaking in.

    All in all... Good Job!
    Last edited by Bark'n; May 14th, 2008 at 09:21 AM. Reason: correcting a typo
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamWallace View Post
    Why don't they get it? My wife is the same way. "Oh you're paranoid..."

    Geez it ticks me off... she'll be the first one singing your praises the day you save her, as will be mine.
    Yup, that's almost exactly what I told her, and it helped to shut down her complaints. Told her "When I save your ***, you're gonna owe me an apology for every time you've criticized me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...play it wrong just once and it's all bad!
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...One one hand... by the way you repeatedly described his hand movements, I would tend to look at that being a distinct possibility (and I underscore that it is only a possibility) that the guy is either "tweaking" (as in high on meth) or exhibiting some "pre-assaultive" cues (as in he's nervous, building up courage, and trying to decide when and how to make his move).
    That's where I'm at a disadvantage: I've never knowingly been around anyone on meth, so I don't recognize the signs. Missouri is among nation's leaders in meth, according to what I've heard on the news, yet I do not know the signs. But yeh, his behavior was abnormal.

    Point well taken about not leaving the house right away. I won't put myself and my family in that situation again.

    Haven't seen the guy since. Still looking.

  8. #52
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    He sounded like a meth-head; I would have done the same thing as you. Good job!

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    Was he casing the joint? You leaving while he was there may have emboldened him to make entry.

    Two Jehovah's witnesses walked all the way to my door from the neighbors door (almost a half mile walk). Felt bad turning them away after all that walking, but my driveway alarm alerted me to their presence 30 seconds before they arrived at the door. I have seen two mag salespeople frequently.

    With the funny movements and distractions and your tunnel vision, I really was expecting you to say that you finally noticed the "second guy". Did you check to see if in fact there was not another scruffy looking guy with him?
    Yoda, I am, yes.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    That's where I'm at a disadvantage: I've never knowingly been around anyone on meth, so I don't recognize the signs.
    Fidgety, unable to stand still, edgy, nervous, talkative, grinding teeth. Those are what I can think of off-hand. (Kansas also has its share of meth-heads.) Of course, those signs can also be signs of any sort of mentally ill fellow you may observe at the Quick-Trip etc. Many long term users of the drug will have learned to avoid exhibiting some or all of those symptoms.

    I wouldn't narrow your boy down to meth; many addicts, be it crack or heroin (high or going through withdrawal), pills or even alcohol, will exhibit a wide variety of symptoms, and rob you or do your house to support a habit.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Grady,

    I too am told at times by my wife and in the past many others here and there that I am not "friendly".
    Or that I do not "smile enough" (show my teeth to every mutt I might cross on any block). Or that I scare and/or intimidate people, and that they tell her or others close to me as much in private. Or that I "look through people". Or that I am too hard on people and expect too much. And most often it's "you're too serious".

    To that I typically say; "Yeah...really, okay".

    Like anyone else in the world I have friends and am friendly.
    But the world at large is not my friend as the world has taught me. And if the world puts in front of me someone like the guy you described who doesn't in my own analysis 'act right' then well yeah I'm not a "friendly" guy. Come at me sideways and I will myself react and act accordingly. I'm a survivor first, and being a 'friendly' affable fellow comes somewhere else down the line of importance and operations protocol.
    I've survived 15 yrs. being married to the same gal to which I'm responsible for plus two kids, 5 yrs. and 22 mos. Being friendly is for me like you not a primary objective nor priority.
    I do not trust most people and I implicitly trust no one but myself. Not my wife, not my parents, not Uncle Sam's agents (e.g. '911'), nobody else but me. Life has taught me lessons toward as much. I am and have always been a quick learner and a fairly decent student who only has to be told or shown once.

    BTW the following people featured on this news board and article I'll bet most of them were memorialized as being 'friendly' affable souls...

    As reported by the Louisiana Times-Picayune:

    Church's list mourns every murder victim
    Posted by The Times-Picayune July 26, 2007 9:19PM


    STAFF PHOTO BY ELIOT KAMENITZ The Rev. Bill Terry of St. Anna's Episcopal Church at 1313 Esplande Ave. puts up the latest murder victims names, including the 100th victim Jeffery Tate, on a board in front of the church. Father Terry said church members also bring weekly one rose for each victim killed that week, to both the Mayor C. Ray Nagin's office and that of NOPD Supt. Warren Riley, Tuesday, July 3, 2007.

    Brendan McCarthy Staff writer

    Outside a 7th Ward church, a cheap plastic billboard lists the names of the dead.

    It records each lost life equally: saints and sinners, children and elders, drug dealers and devoted fathers.

    In a city that greets death with dance steps, The List stands out for its stoicism. Stacked in columns, the names reside under the curt heading: "Murder Victims, 2007."

    The Rev. Bill Terry, the pony-tailed pastor at St. Anna's Episcopal Church, updates The List each Monday afternoon with a black permanent marker: date, name, age, gender, manner of death (shot/beaten/stabbed).

    Terry, 56, started the list in February, a month after New Orleanians revolted after a spate of murders. Thousands of people marched on City Hall and shouted down their elected officials.

    Terry had never before seen the city unify as it did that day. But a month later, he wondered: Where is the follow-up, where is the outrage?

    He and Elaine Clemments, a deacon in training, sought to both funnel their outrage and honor victims. When a victim becomes a statistic, people have a tendency to look at the victim and make a value judgment: He's a criminal, he probably deserved it. To Terry, it makes no difference.

    "It's a human being someone loved," he said, sitting in the rectory hall, clutching a cup of coffee.

    Terry didn't want to make a political statement, nothing outlandish, nothing that would overshadow the slain. He drew inspiration from the Vietnam Memorial, a plain slab of granite existing only to highlight names.

    "People stop and read," he said.

    He and Clemments ordered a plain white board measuring 3 by 8 feet. They combed newspaper clippings for the names of the dead. They hired a graphic designer to imprint the names of the dozens deceased to date. They added names by hand.

    Terry posted the sign on the church's blond bricks, above a knee-high ledge. At first, he used a 10-foot ladder to write near the top of the board. Then, as the list grew, a 6-foot ladder. On Monday, he didn't need the ladder. He stood on the ledge, steadied his ruler and wrote each name in all capital letters.

    In early April, Terry and Clemments began collecting newspaper clippings. They made a scrapbook and placed it in the vestibule of the church, in the 1300 block of Esplanade Avenue. Then they began delivering roses to Mayor Ray Nagin's office; one rose for each person murdered the previous week.

    They sent a handwritten card with each bouquet, offering prayers for the mayor, the city, the victims, their families, even their killers.

    The roses rendered the mayor's secretary speechless.

    Weeks later, Terry received a letter from Nagin.

    Nagin wrote: "The violence we are encountering will not recede until change occurs. Education of our youth is a big factor. Poverty is another. New Orleans faces many challenges, but none greater than creating and sustaining a safe environment for its residents."

    The letter now hangs in the church's function hall.

    In mid-June, Terry's group began delivering roses to Police Superintendent Warren Riley's office.

    At first, office staff members seemed suspicious, wondering about a hidden anti-police agenda. Soon, they warmed, Terry said. Police spokesman Sgt. Joe Narcisse said, "It shows that members of the community are caring, and that these victims are not just thought about by their families and the investigators who are charged with solving these cases."

    Now, the office employees take the roses each week, clip them and put them on display.

    In New Orleans, someone kills someone every other day, on average. Few outside of friends and family care about the names.

    Months after the city's roadside memorials have been cleared away and the "RIP" T-shirts have faded in the laundry, The List stands tall, a permanent reminder of violence.

    The List remembers James McGittigan, 31, fatally shot Jan. 20. McGittigan's middle name was Charles. He had a brother named Sean.

    And Arthur Jackson, 29, gunned down July 1. Jackson's nickname was Bear. He leaves behind his parents, a loving wife and four children.

    Terry knows The List can't stop bullets. But it can stop people in their tracks. He has watched them walk by, has studied them.

    "They walk away changed," he said. On Monday, The List honored 106 people. Terry figures by late September, he'll have to buy more permanent markers and start another board.

    Brendan McCarthy can be reached at bmccarthy@timespicayune.com or (504)§826-3301.

    Source - Church's list mourns every murder victim - Breaking News Updates New Orleans - Times-Picayune - NOLA.com
    If sometime in the future be it tomorrow, next week, or next year you read tale of my own name being in the media or featured on some list of 'victims' know that like you I did not go in, down, or be taken out smiling nor was I or the situation "friendly".

    Malcolm X once advised; "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone. But if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

    IMHO and life experience thus far these are wise words to live and stay alive by. You though are my senior though by many years so I'm going to guess you already knew these concepts thus your reaction and action toward the situation.

    - Janq

    "The World is a ghetto." - WAR
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    This is 2008, people don't just walk around being friendly. I bet he was going to ask for money. It's rare that I get these types but as soon as they don't admit to selling something, I start questioning them. Where do you live, what's your address, where did you move here from, ect??? They get the point quickly that I'm on guard and they usually just walk off knowing I won't play their game.

  13. #57
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    My learning continues. Glad you and your family are OK.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by gljaxon View Post
    I really was expecting you to say that you finally noticed the "second guy". Did you check to see if in fact there was not another scruffy looking guy with him?
    Ooh, good point. On reflection, he appeared to be alone when he also approached another neighbor who was outside as we drove away, but your point about my tunnel vision is a good one. As I was watching his hands, I was not even thinking about a possible partner of his.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Grady,

    I too am told at times by my wife and in the past many others here and there that I am not "friendly".
    Or that I do not "smile enough" (show my teeth to every mutt I might cross on any block). Or that I scare and/or intimidate people, and that they tell her or others close to me as much in private. Or that I "look through people". Or that I am too hard on people and expect too much. And most often it's "you're too serious".
    Sounds very familiar. But we're still alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    ...the world at large is not my friend
    This sums up how I feel. I hadn't been able to verbalize it until I read your post. But that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Being friendly is for me like you not a primary objective nor priority.
    I do not trust most people and I implicitly trust no one but myself.
    Now you are resonating. You do sound like a survivor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    BTW the following people featured on this news board and article I'll bet most of them were memorialized as being 'friendly' affable souls...
    You may well be right. We had a "good samaritan" offer a ride to someone along the highway here awhile back... the hitchhiker killed the friendly "good samaritan."

    Sobering article about all the deaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    If sometime in the future be it tomorrow, next week, or next year you read tale of my own name being in the media or featured on some list of 'victims' know that like you I did not go in, down, or be taken out smiling nor was I or the situation "friendly".
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    You though are my senior though by many years so I'm going to guess you already knew these concepts thus your reaction and action toward the situation.
    The problem is I lived in a fog for too many years. I falsely believed that if I stayed out of the bad parts of town and tried to live a good and peaceful life, that nothing bad would happen to me. However, after reading some of the bio's of those killed at VT, I realized some of them were better people than me, yet they were still slaughtered. After reading the horrid accounts of the doctor's home invasion in Cheshire, CT, I realized he lived in a much better neighborhood than I live in. After reading the account of The Wichita Horror, I realized that they complied and tried to get along with the home invaders for hours. Yet irrevocable tragedy struck all those. All these people were surprised, totally unprepared, and totally ineffective when evil and death came. As they exited this life, they were treated to actions no one should have to endure, except the perps who committed the crimes.

    I may have a few years on you, but I'm way behind the 8-ball on learning common-sense ways of self and family defense. I'm playing "catch up" as fast as I can.

    I was fooled into trusting I would be safe in this society as long as I tried to live a good life and trust good things would happen. I was wrong, very wrong.

    Now that I know the rules, I have a chance when that day comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redxd View Post
    My learning continues.
    And so does mine.

    Thanks to all who replied, and for not bashing me for being stupid as I deserved.

    Yes, the learning continues.

    Yes, the world is a ghetto, but this part of the ghetto is now armed permanently, so now I and my family stand a chance.

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    I don't even open the door for sales men, Jehovah's witness etc, the day you do, and if your wrong... all they would have to do is push you out of the way so opening doors etc makes for a much easer access. If someone else opened the door for me, I make sure that I am within reach of my gun and can see the door the person is standing at.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Grady: He put his hand behind him and flipped up his shirt. Bad move for him.
    Good for you for not waiting to see if you would be shot or not.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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