Kind of A Scary Day

This is a discussion on Kind of A Scary Day within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; That's up to the publisher to worry about the legal ramifications....

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Thread: Kind of A Scary Day

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    That's up to the publisher to worry about the legal ramifications.

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  3. #17
    Member Array HKtexas's Avatar
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    So your not LEO, you were on a ride along and you pulled a gun on a unarmed person, sounds perfectly reasonable...situation reversed, you live in a high crime area and walk by a van and someone jumps out gun in hand and doesn't identify themselves as a police officer, what would you do??

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I would do what they tell me, like he did. Except he was a known dangerous drug dealer and he knew the van driver was BPD by the badge around his neck. And the drug dealer walked briskly toward the rear of the van for no apparent reason.
    And the officer was doing the same thing from the other direction. And the drug dealer did not indicate that he was unarmed. And you do not have to be a police officer to defend one from what you perceive and what a reasonable person would believe to be very possible harm, and the opportunity to ID oneself did not arise as it was a very brisk walk that the dealer was taking, and he was nearing the end of the van when I opened my door and pointed at him before he disappeared around the corner.
    And I did not leave the van, I leaned out of it in his direction.
    And all these things can be second-guessed but there would be no way to bring back the officer if he were killed by the dangerous known drug dealer.
    And the dealer was the high crime area, did not just live in one.
    And I would have shot him to death had he come up with a gun at me.
    Last edited by dcb188; May 1st, 2008 at 02:09 PM.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    The thing is, I did know them, all of them. They first invited me out in 1992 and I went out nearly 200 times 1992-2000, the date of that incident. And they kept inviting me out but I had seen enough. All those officers are my worthy adversaries, or so they call themselves, in criminal cases, where I am the defense counsel in a lot of their cases. So we all go back to 1985. And I think I am the only crim defense atty who does not see the police as my adversary. So that is one thing that caused this bond to develop. Defense counsel and police mix real well like oil and water. But we are a tight group, all my friends being Boston PD officers and no lawyers as social friends at all. So it is a unique situation. They were the ones who advised me to start carrying. I did not think about it before they suggested it two years into these ride-alongs.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Certainly I understand the need to intervene, but couldn't you have done it without drawing?

    Get out, and ask him loudly, "Hey, what do you think you're doing?!", while trying to put yourself between you and the officer and be prepared to draw.

    As you say, it's easy to second guess, but it doesn't seem like you had cause to draw.

    -john

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    One more step and he would have been behind the van out of my sight and just coming into contact with the officer.
    I had no time except to say uh uh uh uh and point the .45 at him at the same time and that was to be sure he stopped in his tracks instead of giving me a look and continuing around the van.
    I was not about to allow the officer to be harmed or killed.
    And before we saw this guy we were looking for him and we knew him as a player, a dangerous drug dealer and that is why they wanted the FOUR cars there to take him down, and I just heard all this on the radio and I am not about to just say uh uh uh uh without a .45 to back up what I am communicating.
    I know this guy's history, I know he is about to meet a cop behind the van and he has no reason to walk around the van like that, when he was just standing on the corner on my passenger side, and I had just previously heard the Sgt on the radio saying make SURE we have all four vehicles for this particular guy, do not take him off alone.

    All this meant, to me, that the .45 had to be brought up and immediately.
    We knew him as being dangerous.
    And even now the Sgts words are clear as a bell to me.
    Do not take him off alone.
    Last edited by dcb188; May 1st, 2008 at 02:10 PM.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    You only had a few seconds to make the decision, everyone went home alive...sounds like you did fine.

    what's that term...Objective Reasonableness?
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    The thing is, I did know them, all of them. They first invited me out in 1992 and I went out nearly 200 times 1992-2000, the date of that incident. And they kept inviting me out but I had seen enough. All those officers are my worthy adversaries, or so they call themselves, in criminal cases, where I am the defense counsel in a lot of their cases. So we all go back to 1985. And I think I am the only crim defense atty who does not see the police as my adversary. So that is one thing that caused this bond to develop. Defense counsel and police mix real well like oil and water. But we are a tight group, all my friends being Boston PD officers and no lawyers as social friends at all. So it is a unique situation. They were the ones who advised me to start carrying. I did not think about it before they suggested it two years into these ride-alongs.
    In that case, I wouldn't have a problem with you carrying as I do know you. I still think it would be somewhat difficult to explain why you were carrying if you DID have to use your weapon. "Defense Attorney kills Drug Dealer" as a headline might have sunk your career as a defense attorney, and could have hurt the officer's career as well. OMO
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I see what you mean, but I did have permission to carry. The whole thing was way way different than the average ride-along, because even asst da's cannot go on even one these days.
    The headline? I would have hated to see it happen but I would have been proud to have had something to do with helping out the LEO on the streets there.
    My own career has gone on long enough anyway. His career might have been more than helped, he might have been alive.
    Now as is obvious, this guy was not carrying, BUT he was known to be dangerous and that was broadcast, and how often do you see large city police depts want FOUR unmarked cars to take this guy down with, with at least two guys in each car? That is very unusual so this guy was not your usual situation.
    I was so shocked to see him do what he did because when we pulled up to him, he was right by my window, and that is when I drew my gun and kept in on my lap so he could not see it but I saw how close we had pulled to him and I thought WTH?
    So even then I had my gun out but down by my lap or side just because of the surprise proximity. Don't forget that the driver pulled right up next to him. When the officer got out, to go check out this guy, he left the guy standing right outside my front passenger window, just standing there.
    But then this guy started briskly making his way to the rear of the van. Why? I could not think of any reasonable explanation except ambush. In my mind, there was no other possible reason. Suspects do not usually come to you, you have to go to them, so this was really bizarre and I had never seen it on any previous ride alongs.
    So the reason I did what I did was, adding it all up, all of it, I felt I had no choice but to help protect the unsuspecting officer. I would play it again the same way.
    Don't forget one important thing here. The fact that this known dangerous drug dealer was not armed was not known til after the fact. Makes it easy to then say, oh you pulled on an unarmed man :) He was the subject of our hunt that morning. All morning they kept saying now when you see this guy do not take him off until all four cars are there.
    So when we spotted him from the van, I said hey, that's the guy across the street, the driver, the officer, whips up right next to the guy with me about three feet away, and it all started from that point.
    That day kind of soured me about going out anymore, and I still get invites to go out but that day in February of 2000, I said, as active as all my BPD friends are here, they have all been in shooting incidents just because of the sheer numbers of arrests. And the neighborhoods we went into were by far the worst in the city.
    They lead the city in arrests. And it may have just been a matter of time where I would have to shoot some nitwit who made me do it. So have never been on one since.
    ( Well, except in San Francisco Dec 2000 when I walked into the CHP office and they said we do not allow ride-alongs and I said, well I grew up in Calif and CHP is my favorite agency and they said so what, and I said, well, 200 with Boston Police and one in NYPD South Bronx and I was an asst d.a. and a fed prosecutor, so the female desk sgt faxed something to HQ in Sacramento and they came back with an okay, but I was unarmed there, of course.)
    Last edited by JD; May 2nd, 2008 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Edited language work around
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    And,you know, this was one of those things where, if you knew then what you know now, you would have stayed at home in the first place.
    No one wants to get in that situation.
    And keep in mind that he was not fired at nor did I fire any warning shot etc. Just enough combination between voice and gun to make him stop walking toward the officer coming around the back. And they would have made contact in a couple of more steps.
    So all in all, I would have stayed home that day.
    And that was eight years ago and talking about it now makes the adrenaline flow a little.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    My concern would be who gave the permission for you to carry? Yes, the officer would be alive but could face career, if not criminal issues for allowing you to carry in a ride-along. The four cars with 2 officers apiece could have been a show of force especially if the guy has a history of resisting and or he is a big guy. Also, from your post, the officer driving made a mistake in that he confronted the guy alone with only a CCW as backup after being told to wait until all 4 cars were there. I'm glad it all worked out to the best.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    If you are glad it worked out for the best, you should see how glad I am that it did :) This is exactly why it was my last ride along except for the CHP one.
    You would not have believed the tongue-lashing that driver got from the Sergeant in charge of the unit.
    That is why I was so shocked to one minute be telling him that there is the guy across the street on that corner, and the next minute he pulls up right next to him, after the Sergeant just finished saying great, we will get him but do not take him off til we all get there
    I just had trouble believing that I was now about three feet away from this guy just looking into each other's eyes. I said, well, I am not going to sit here right in front of this guy and possibly get shot, so out comes the .45 within five seconds of pulling up to him like that.
    As I said, held down and hidden from his view completely. And so I just sat there. Then the driver gets out and I said now where is HE going????
    And I had no intention of even getting out of the van, much less holding him at gunpoint, none of that crossed my mind UNTIL he began to take a little stroll toward the rear of the van.
    Now that got my attention real quickly. Before that, there would never have been any confrontation unless he had opened up on the officer.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klx9mm View Post
    That's a tough scenerio to be in. I think you did ok. It could have been the officers life at stake otherwise.
    Geez. What a tough scenario. If put into the position in a ride-along and with a single LEO who was about to get broad-sided, I can see it being very hard to just let it ride, as it absolutely could have resulted in one dead LEO, and very likely your own death, had the BG been armed and quick.

    So much could have gone wrong, though. I'm hoping the mere fact that you were carrying your P90 meant that you and the LEO had discussed possibilities and had a basic protocol for such things. Perhaps not. If not, then that LEO could have been surprised by the turn of events and gone sideways on you (without the pre-planning).

    Sticky situation, entirely.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    It is amazing how fast it happened, and with three factors that changed very rapidly.
    1) Pulling right up to the guy after just being told not to.
    2) The officer getting out of the van without saying he was going to.
    3) The dangerous drug dealer not standing still on the corner but now walking briskly toward the rear of the van.
    I was not in the least expecting any of those three things to happen, but they did happen, and real fast.
    The intervening time between those three factors was negligible, causing me to open the door, make the sounds I made, and bring up the gun. I had no time to even talk.
    I could not get a word out, because time was of the essence.
    The word ambush came to me real quick.
    And as I said, this is the reason I have not been back.
    There comes a time when we should just leave well enough alone, I guess. So I retired from my 8 yrs and 189 ride alongs.
    My ride along was not with this driver except for an hour or two while we were all out looking for this specific guy. I was with the Sgt for the hours before and after this, as I usually was.
    Last edited by dcb188; May 2nd, 2008 at 01:18 PM.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  16. #30
    Member Array biasedbulldog's Avatar
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    Just caught this thread. Probably don't need any reassurance, but I think you did absolutely the right thing.

    All this crap about not drawing is just that -- crap! You've got six feet or less between him and you... same between him and the cop... you don't draw, and next thing you know, both you and cop are bleeding out.

    I think one thing that was overlooked in this thread was that *although he was unarmed, he was still dangerous*. Perhaps if you don't intervene he sucker-punches the cop as he rounds the corner and takes his gun away. No telling where that situation was headed.

    Also, better you draw and say "uh uh uh" than say, "Freeze!" or "Don't move!" and forget to draw :)

    All in all, nice job. I hope if I'm ever put in a tense situation, I'll have the same good instincts.
    "War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams

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