beating to death

beating to death

This is a discussion on beating to death within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, I was reading the thread about someone drawing on a guy that he ran down after a hit and run. The general concensus was ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array crankinNM's Avatar
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    beating to death

    OK,

    I was reading the thread about someone drawing on a guy that he ran down after a hit and run.

    The general concensus was "don't get involved if you are not in danger or someone else is not in danger".

    Lets say that you encounter someone beating up someone else with there fists. You think this guy might kill this other guy. No one is armed. It is a fist fight. What do you do?

    Lets say you say "Hey quit hitting that guy, you could kill him" and the guy tells you "that is what he is trying to do"

    Do you get involved any further?


  2. #2
    Member Array UpOn2Wheels's Avatar
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    It would be heavily dependent upon circumstances; regardless of who's winning the fight, how do you know who the good guy is? In Florida, it's legal to use a weapon to prevent a "forceable felony"; still, I'd want to be damn sure I knew exactly what the circumstances were.

    My first reaction would be to dial 911, then try my best to break it up without jumping in the middle.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankinNM View Post
    Do you get involved any further?
    "The world is a dangerous place not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
    -- Albert Einstein
    Howard
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  4. #4
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    Two guys pounding on each other?

    I will certainly do all I can, from about 30 feet away with my cell phone in hand...not my battle.

    Now some 'geezer' getting pounded by a young thug...well, I would still use a cell phone, but I'd probably include a warning of the cops being called...etc...I'm still not a cop!

    It's a cruel world out there, those who choose not to have the proper tools to defend themselves can pay a BIG price.

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  5. #5
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    Ninety percent of the population would have you beleive that
    "getting involved" is not the right thing to do and they will give many reasons or justifications for not doing it.

    You might get sued,you might get hurt, you dont know them, its not the tactical thing to do, what if this and what if that. They will wring their hands and justify how they did not act and they will be sure that they did the right thing by not acting because they read on the internet that the right thing to do was to not act. In the meantime...Satan chuckles.

    There is a verse in a well know book that says something like "love thy brother as thyself" and another verse that says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Call me silly, but I live by those two simple rules.

    I can t speak for anyone else but myself, and I really dont expect those that would let someone get pounded into the dirt and felt like they were being a good citizen or witness by dialing 911 to understand that I would absolutley not let someone get beaten to death.

    Hopefully, most of us can tell when someone is being beaten. While I have no doubt that some people arent smart enough to know how to intervene, and dont possess the common sense that even a pissant has,at least most of us that carry a gun should be able to distinguish what is right and what is wrong.

    Even a justified azz whoopin has its limits.

    With that being said, it is a felony. Some verbal commands, and if that didnt work, a swift kick in the teeth will get the most determined aggressor off of someone. If he advanced further on me, out comes the .45.

    Then we'll let the cops sort the rest of it out because to be honest, I'm getting tired of the fact that the whole world is rapidly turning into a bunch of mamby pampied weenies too scared to do anything because of what might happen.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Ninety percent of the population would have you beleive that
    "getting involved" is not the right thing to do and they will give many reasons or justifications for not doing it.

    You might get sued,you might get hurt, you dont know them, its not the tactical thing to do, what if this and what if that. They will wring their hands and justify how they did not act and they will be sure that they did the right thing by not acting because they read on the internet that the right thing to do was to not act. In the meantime...Satan chuckles.

    There is a verse in a well know book that says something like "love thy brother as thyself" and another verse that says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Call me silly, but I live by those two simple rules.

    I can t speak for anyone else but myself, and I really dont expect those that would let someone get pounded into the dirt and felt like they were being a good citizen or witness by dialing 911 to understand that I would absolutley not let someone get beaten to death.

    Hopefully, most of us can tell when someone is being beaten. While I have no doubt that some people arent smart enough to know how to intervene, and dont possess the common sense that even a pissant has,at least most of us that carry a gun should be able to distinguish what is right and what is wrong.

    Even a justified azz whoopin has its limits.

    With that being said, it is a felony. Some verbal commands, and if that didnt work, a swift kick in the teeth will get the most determined aggressor off of someone. If he advanced further on me, out comes the .45.

    Then we'll let the cops sort the rest of it out because to be honest, I'm getting tired of the fact that the whole world is rapidly turning into a bunch of mamby pampied weenies too scared to do anything because of what might happen.
    Agree 100%. I'm not looking to "play" cop. I did that for real for a number of years. However, you cannot claim to be concerned about moral decline and demand something be done about criminal conduct and then stand on the sideline and watch another human being getting beat to death.

    You do need to size up the situation. You do need to call 911. Do not assume someone else may have done so. But you also need to know when you need to do more than just watch the carnage.

    Bottom line is you are part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Your choice.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    You must be sure that you jump in on the correct side, legally. You have no idea who the perpetrator is and who the victim is. If you jump in on the wrong side of that fight, you could end up being liable for what happens, civilly. And criminal charges could be filed, but that is unlikely, as you are just trying to do the right thing and are stopping an assault and battery. Defense of others is a valid defense to a charge of a and b. So you must be sure what is going on and that could be tough to do. This is in a fistfight. It makes a difference if the guy on the bottom is unarmed and the guy on top is stabbing him. Then for him it may be the choice of complying with your commands or contracting a case of instantaneous lead poisoning, and you would be justified.

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    Bottom line is you are part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Your choice.
    There ya have it.

    Well said.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #9
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    you should ALWAYS be very careful when involving yourself in a conflict between two strangers. a friend's uncle went to jail because as he was leaving a bar, one of his buddies was struggling with a stranger. he jumped in to help, and knocked the other guy out, and was arrested because his friend was ROBBING the guy and he just helped. just call the cops and if you have to a little pepper spray never hurt anybody... for long.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalexplr View Post
    You do need to size up the situation. You do need to call 911. Do not assume someone else may have done so. But you also need to know when you need to do more than just watch the carnage.
    I'll buy that! Well Put! Just be sure you know who the players are and have all the facts...
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  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array airslot's Avatar
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    Two guys, both standing, trading punches = call 911

    Two guys, one on the ground ( out of it ) getting his butt handed to him = call 911 & INTERVENE

    I'm surprised by the number of people lurking in the shadows on this issue. We all know what's RIGHT/WRONG.

    Living in fear of the legal ramifications is worse than fearing the BGs. You want change? You want a safer society?

    TAKE A STAND
    STEP INTO THE LIGHT AND DO WHAT YOU KNOW IS RIGHT
    The situation will NEVER BE THE WAY YOU WANT, it WILL BE THE WAY IT IS. You must be FLEXIBLE ENOUGH TO ADAPT and just "DEAL WITH IT".

  12. #12
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    Well, if ya wade in there with the fists and elbows, you have just brought a firearm to a fistfight.

    I'm not going to deny that serious damage can be done with only ones body. Workin in college as a bouncer for a while I saw and experienced exactly the kind of damage that can be done in a brawl without weapons. And I waded my way right into just about all of them I saw, for better or worse.

    Two guys in a stand up fight, I'm probably just gonna call 911, and probably yell and scream at em to stop. But if they are both active participants in the fight, gettin between their fists, or getting both of them mad at you isn't going to do you much good.

    Now if one guy is say on the ground knocked out, about to get curb stomped, or some in some other sort of predicament where he can no longer defend himself and the other guy isn't letting up, it becomes time to start showing your hand and upping the ante.
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  13. #13
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    Well, if the guy was already knocked out would what the other guy is doing be considered self defence? Or murder? It's kinda like disarming the bad guy and then shooting him isn't it? I would intervene, but to intervene would mean to hold both people until the police arrived and the bad guy could be identified. Mostly for reasons already stated. The knocked out guy could be a criminal or a victim. Or the other guy could be robbing the knocked out guy. Who knows! I doubt the guy could press charges against for detaining him because everyone knows that if your involved in a altercation like that you can't just walk away. Intervene, hold everyone, don't pull unless you fear for your life. If the guy tries to leave, follow him and relay info to the police. I doubt the knocked out guy is just going to put up much of a fight. Just my opinion.

    BTW, when I say intervene. I don't mean to say I would engage myself in the altercation. I would just try to stop the fight or restrain the one not knocked out. If he took a swing at me, well I guess I would have to incapacitate him. I would be a hard decision on weather or not to pull on him.
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    I see a big difference between intervening to stop someone from being seriously injured or killed and pursuing a runaway from a fender bender or a purse snatcher on the run. One might be the decent and moral thing to do. The other is simply foolish.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    This is a tough one. A couple years ago a man was at a mall near my work and he was chased out of the mall by a crazy man that started beating him. After the man was knocked to the ground, the crazy man continued his attack. The man on the ground drew a revolver and killed his assailant. He was never charged (even in liberal seattle, self-defense is recognized), since there was a disparity of force and he feared for his life.

    The problem with the scenario laid before us in this thread (just my opinion), is that disparity of force is a concept that, in some regards, revolves around a reasonable person fearing for their life. Imagine you help this man who's being beaten severely, and he gets up on the stand and tells the grand jury that he had it under control. What now?

    Hopefully there are witnesses who will contradict the moron, err I mean, victims ludicrous position. But what if they don't?

    And before someone calls me out on the carpet for whatifing the heck out of this scenario, the scenario is a whatif.

    Now that I have that out of the way... I'm relatively comfortable determining when someone is losing consciousness. At that moment, I would not hesitate to open a big can of whup-@** if the attacker refuses my order to stop. And, I'd have been yelling for them to stop the whole time while on the phone to 9-11 of course.

    My reasoning (and it may be flawed) is that someone who is unconscious from injury is generally considered to be asking for aid. For example, a stranger can refuse your help clearing their airway... up until they pass out. Then you can help them, even against their original wishes. At the point the victim of the beating loses consciousness, it doesn't really matter what moronic things they may say later.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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