What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness - Page 3

What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness

This is a discussion on What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First, I want to thank dcb188 for the kind words early on in this thread. The scenario I posed is one that appears to have ...

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 108

Thread: What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness

  1. #31
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    443
    First, I want to thank dcb188 for the kind words early on in this thread. The scenario I posed is one that appears to have an obvious answer that, when examined closely, suggests - or more like hopes there is a different answer. Likely, none of us knows what each might actually do if put in such a position as the viewer.

    We all have the choice to walk away when someone else is in distress. When that happened to Kitty Genovese, there were 38 citizens who decided to be witnesses. Kitty died a victim of rape and robbery, despite the police having been called numerous times, the BG leaving the scene (scared by shouts from witnesses) only to come back to systematically hunt her down and finish the job. In all, a full half-hour attack.

    My biggest question, in the scenarios I posted earlier, is just how much of a true difference does taking the same fundamental actions (coming to the aid / stopping a brutal assault / using a firearm) make but from a distance and with a rifle? The result could be the same but through different means. Is the action perceived differently enough that the act would morph from heroic to criminal?


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canton, OH
    Posts
    899
    With your indulgence I repeat a post I made in a similar thread on this forum.

    What would I do? I don't know.

    I do know that there are those who see a wrong and, in spite of all the analysis in this thread, will decide in that split second when what we are and who we are drives us irrestibly to action. If it goes well, they will not brag. If it goes badly, they will not complain. In my eyes, these people are heroes.

    What would I do? On the spectrum from hero to goat I don't know where I'll be. I have been tested in minor ways (my life was not at risk) where I have been legally at risk. I have sometimes acted such that I could take pride, not in the result, but in the fact that I acted. I have sometimes acted such that I was ashamed. Life is complicated.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Hi Rivers: Thanks to YOU for the kind words.
    I think it all comes down to the same controlling principles, Rivers, whether close or far away from V's predicament. Same general principles. Necessary force to repel. The key words.
    And having said that, the potential for killing someone other than the suspect here is huge, with the rifle, and that is the problem. So I do think while the principles are the same short and long distance, the factors are not, if that makes any sense.
    Handgun, short distance, good shot, shoot car, no problem.
    Rifle, long distance, good shot, shoot car, richochet into house and kills someone. This is the problem. Your risks with the rifle outweigh the benefits. Unless you were really trained and knew you could shoot suspect and not have a chance of hurting someone else, I would say go for it. If you cannot say that, then do not go for it but start doing what you are able to do, i.e. drop a small TV out the window, throw vases out, whatever it takes to make a huge commotion, this brings neighbors to their windows.
    You want to defend V but not by killing some other innocent person. That sums it all up.
    But I do think something should be done, definitely.
    The handgun and rifle are big big differences in the scenario and it is tough to apply the same principles that control to both. The one principle being force necessary to repel attack, that applies for handgun and rifle. Now apply it to the rifle and we see that now we have a dangerous situation for bystanders and residents on our hands that we did not have re a handgun.
    Does this way of putting it make any sense?
    Same principle but different actions based on CAPABILITIES OF WEAPONS.

    IF you are a great shot, an expert rifle shot, and IF you can somehow put a round into a nearby car without a problem to other residents, fine. If you cannot, put the rifle away until it looks like this V will die if you do not shoot suspect, but even then, you will be held accountable for bystander injuries and deaths. You will be told that you did not have to use the rifle.
    So, weapon capabilities make difference, but so does your own level of expertise with both weapons. With the rifle, it better be real good expertise.
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:24 AM.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canton, OH
    Posts
    899
    I was just reviewing the invoice from my lawyer in a civil matter. It reminded me of a conversation I had with him early on in the matter. I was whining at how unjust is was that it was costing money to defend myself in a matter where the company had no chance of winning. He said "Don't confuse justice with the law." I think that nicely summarizes these discussions. Seems sad somehow.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Well, Howard, I think it is more than justice and law, even combined. It is not that the law is against us. It is there to protect us. But the potential innocent victims of a rifle shot need to be protected too. The point of it is to save someone without killing someone else or several other people in the process. So it is a balancing act with the rifle scenario that is much less so with the handgun scenario.
    Things can be very clearcut but not always. And this scenario is a little unusual anyway. It is still great to talk about but it is an extreme situation and not your normal coming to the assistance of others. So more things have to be taken into consideration.
    And the single biggest factor is the rifle.

    Howard, an invoice from a lawyer is on its face an injustice :). I don't have to worry about that as I do only criminal law, which is unusual, but I just don't like civil law so I refer cases out to other folks. After 22,000 criminal cases in inner-city Boston courts, just about every scenario has come up, and some are bizarre.
    But I know that just seeing a lawyer's invoice is enough to make you wonder, even if it was fair. They charge wayyyy too much.
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:24 AM.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canton, OH
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    And the single biggest factor is the rifle.
    I quite agree. Thanks for bringing me back to earth. I sometimes get carried away.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Howard: We all had a great discussion last night on that other topic, didn't we. This is addictive. I am getting nothing done but sitting here reading and typing. I do more work here than I do in my office, pretty sad.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    After 22,000 criminal cases in inner-city Boston courts, just about every scenario has come up, and some are bizarre.
    But I know that just seeing a lawyer's invoice is enough to make you wonder, even if it was fair. They charge wayyyy too much.
    Only if the defendant is convicted. Staying out of prison is priceless in my book. OMO.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    I guess that's right, mulle46......

    But still, and not to drift too far off topic for one second here, lawyer's fees are way way too much, so are medical fees. It is outrageous. And people say well they went thru med school or law school. So? Does that mean we have to pay for it all????? End of sub sub sub topic======
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:25 AM.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    But still, and not to drift too far off topic for one second here, lawyer's fees are way way too much, so are medical fees. It is outrageous. And people say well they went thru med school or law school. So? Does that mean we have to pay for it all????? End of sub sub sub topic======
    I agree with you in regards to lawyers who don't practice criminal law. Like my previous post, to me, staying out of prison is priceless. But upwards of 250 dollars a hour is excessive for civil or family law, IMO. But the reason that lawyers charge that much is because the clients will pay it. If the clients stopped paying that much, the attorneys would lower their costs. Doctors are another story, as most of their charges are covered by insurance.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Exactly. They charge it, people pay it, so they charge it again, over and over and no one can break the cycle.
    I am out of here for the night as I have to work tomorrow but back again after that. Is there some Forums Anonymous we can go to to fight this addiction?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,164
    Not sure there is a DC anonymous group, just yet. LOL.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #43
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    n.e. ohio
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Well, Howard, I think it is more than justice and law, even combined. It is not that the law is against us. It is there to protect us. But the potential innocent victims of a rifle shot need to be protected too. The point of it is to save someone without killing someone else or several other people in the process. So it is a balancing act with the rifle scenario that is much less so with the handgun scenario.
    Things can be very clearcut but not always. And this scenario is a little unusual anyway. It is still great to talk about but it is an extreme situation and not your normal coming to the assistance of others. So more things have to be taken into consideration.
    And the single biggest factor is the rifle.
    I'm not sure I understand the full meaning of the rifle being the single biggest factor. Let me try to clarify so I'll understand it better.
    A fired 9mm pistol bullet leaves the muzzle of the pistol at 1200-1400 fps and can travel over one mile (depending on the angle of launch) and still retain enough force anywhere in-between to seriously injure or kill an unintended victim. A ricochet of hardball ammo from the same pistol at a little closer distance can also injure or kill. For sure, the rifle can multiply these capabilities, but in the relatively close quarters of an urban environment......? I guess I'll have to think about this a little more.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Well, my statement only holds if the guy is a really good shot and knows he can place a round in nearby parked car next to subject and V. If he cannot then he definitely should put the rifle away, for now at least. Whatever shot into a car, can be accomplished, should be, if no one else can or will be hurt. If they would, then it should not be done.....
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Want to change the scenario a little bit or is everyone tired of this one?
    They are only discussions. Not even as learning devices but just talking.
    How about if the V is being hurt worse than we posited? It is a young female and the subject has a cinder block and it beating her with it repeatedly.
    You know she will be dead very soon.
    You called police.
    A few more strikes with the cinder blocks and the medical examiner will arrive also.
    You have the rifle, you are disabled, same scenario as before except now the V is not doing as well as the last scenario V was doing.
    Do you shoot? The parked car? Shoot the subject? To kill? You know you cannot just fire and hurt innocent people so this assumes you are a good good shot, just like the other scenario did. I did not make up the previous scenario but I am adding this ingredient to it: This V will die if you don't do something quick. So now it is more urgent than before. It is not an elderly man being beaten. It is a young female being so brutally attacked that she is not long for this world.
    And right this second? Her only help is you.
    This is only a hypothetical. A few people don't like them and say so, but isn't it easier to just go to another thread? A lot of folks like the scenarios because we talk about it and it makes one think.
    Some are offended by scenarios being posted, two that I can think of, and that is really bizarre. That is more bizarre than the scenario itself :)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Self-defense for the disabled
    By goodlife in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: March 28th, 2010, 09:33 AM
  2. Able vs Disabled
    By mercop in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: March 25th, 2009, 09:09 AM
  3. Disabled man fends off attacker
    By packinnova in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: July 30th, 2007, 07:26 PM
  4. Disabled Shooting
    By A1C Lickey in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: September 25th, 2005, 07:07 PM

Search tags for this page

what would you do hscenario disability

,

what would you do scenario disability

Click on a term to search for related topics.