What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness - Page 4

What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness

This is a discussion on What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It appears the only difference in scenarios is the victim's age and gender. The urgency, lack of ability to defend, the witness' inability to approach ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    It appears the only difference in scenarios is the victim's age and gender. The urgency, lack of ability to defend, the witness' inability to approach and the means of stopping the assault are basically the same.

    Would that make a difference? To a DA, I doubt it. I think the biggest variable in whether taking aggressive action to stop the assault would be considered heroic or criminal is whether it is viewed by urbanites or non-city dwellers. I think that those in the cities are conditioned by politicians and liberal media that calling 9-1-1 and the arrival of emergency services will resolve all issues. Those who live in the country know that help may not be coming for quite a while and that they must rely on themselves to take care of matters in the meantime.

    I think that many who have examined these scenarios already know what they feel to be the moral thing to do, what they are willing to do, and what society would accept as the proper thing to do. My guess is that for those three choices to be the same, it won't be in URBAN America.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Right. I think it depends on what will happen to V if you do not do anything, also
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #48
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    The "young female" cannot be saved "without killing someone else." Admittedly, I'm getting a little confused. Are the firearms laws different in Massachusetts?

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    No different. I said IF you cannot save the young female without killing others, then you cannot do it. What would be the point? You save one and three more die from the effects of the rifle bullet.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    All these scenarios are like a baseball game. You and I and others are watching it at the ballpark. Someone hits a home run, 50,000 people watch it.
    It was one event. Everyone saw it.
    But not everyone is going to say that they saw it the same way you did.
    There will be those who think it is a great home run.
    Others will say they have seen better.
    Some will say it is no big deal.
    Others say they will remember it the rest of their lives.
    It is not that there are 50,000 different opinions, but many many different opinions on the exact same event that all of them saw. How can this be? Because we each see things differently depending on everything that ever happened in our lives
    This stuff is no different. We are all reading the same words. We have different takes on it. That is normal.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  6. #51
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    Good read. Just saw it for the first time, and after six pages I thought I'd insert another variable:

    Rather than a scoped hunting-rifle, your only option is a [edit: legally posessed] ASSAULT-RIFLE. Could be one of three choices:

    1: AK-47

    2: AR-15 (20" free-floating heavy-barrel flat-top varmint rifle)

    3: AR-15 or M-4 variant (standard combat-type with flash suppresor).

    Assume that with all three, an accurate shot can be placed. Does the difference in the type of rifle used now change the opinion of a DA or jury that may have ruled your shooting justified had you used a hunting-rifle?

    The reason I bring this into the equation is that today I had the displeasure of conversing with an anti-gun individual with what I'd like to call "less than realistic views regarding life on Earth." He was a magazine editor from NY. To him there is absolutely no justification for an average citizen to own an assault rifle, but he seemed to believe you could defend yourself with "a normal gun" just as well, whatever that means.... Personally, I do not own any hunting guns. I do not believe in the unnecessary taking of life, which to me includes animals (let's not turn this into an argument about that please). The only firearms I posess are for the sole purpose of defense, be it personal defense (CCW handgun), or preservation of liberty/defense of homeland (assault-weapons). So... What do you think?
    Last edited by TacticalCompact; May 3rd, 2008 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Let's assume the assault-weapon is legally possesed.

  7. #52
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    No different. I said IF you cannot save the young female without killing others, then you cannot do it. What would be the point? You save one and three more die from the effects of the rifle bullet.
    Three people with one rifle bullet....... that's some mighty good shootin' pardner.
    Is the attacker included in the three?

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    IF you are a great shot, an expert rifle shot, and IF you can somehow put a round into a nearby car without a problem to other residents, fine.
    I'd like to go back to an idea that came up a bit ago. I'm not very educated in the effects of a bullet hitting a car. My a priori expectations are that the sound of the rifle discharge would have more effect in distracting the BG than the sound of a bullet hitting nearby. Therefore, without additional knowledge, I would be inclined to fire several warning shots as safely as possible without regard to proximity of BG.

    Anyone knowledgeable in these matters care to chime in?
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    curmudgeons, I think a bunch of folks got on here saying a rifle bullet would hit the pavement etc and fly up into a house etc so I don't mean three different people in different areas but bystanders in a room nearby etc or walking on the sidewalk. This was a city scenario that someone set up and the question was, would it be any different using a handgun as opposed to a rifle and why, and so a few of us tried to give him our personal views, then a few came on and correctly pointed out that a rifle bullet had the potential to do more harm to others than good to one. And I think they were correct. I mean, do we agree that a rifle round hitting the street is dangerous to people even in their own apartments nearby? That's what I meant. Three. The figure could be one. It could be two people killed. I don't know. Could a rifle bullet injure three people on a city street? Does anyone think it could?

    tactical compact, I think the skill of the shooter from the window is ALL important. Beforehand,too. If he can put a round into a parked car nearby, fine. If he does not think he can, then he should not shoot.
    I think if he does not do it just right, it could kill others. One, two, three, ten in a bunch, who knows? It is just a hypothetical. But it is dangerous to fire a rifle onto a city street, was what folks were pointing out.
    So I agreed and said well it seems to be different from a handgun re range, etc.
    I don't know that the make of the rifle or the caliber would be controlling as much as the shooter's skill. A real good shooter could scare the assailant away without hurting or killing any innocent people, then he should go for it.

    Hi again, Howard, one of my favorite people here, and others would say the same of you------the effects of a rifle bullet hitting a car?
    I guess a police sharpshooter could put a round into a parked car nearby that would give the assailant the correct message, i.e. next one is for you. Or a real good non-police personnel shooter, just as well.
    I think without a high high level of marksmanship skill with a rifle, you would pay the consequences if others were killed while you tried to save one victim.
    There are folks on this forum who could do it without injuring others, but some others came on here last night and I got the impression from them that they did not think anyone would be able to do it safely, i.e. hit the car with a round, to scare away assailant (LS) (little savage, as I call them).
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    TacticalCompact: I agree that our weapons need not be limited to handguns. People don't understand that with what is already out there on the streets, our handguns may not be enough.
    Look back at the Bank of America LAPD incident, a case of police heroism if I ever saw it. Those two LS individuals ended up with justice, but the police had to go to a gun store to get assault rifles to combat the threat.
    So the guy you were talking to is indeed not aware that although this is a good world, it has a tremendous amount of evil in it, not more evil than good, but a tremendous amount, and we need to fight them with everything we have, and my SP101 not being enough in some particular situation, nothing wrong with me breaking out an AK-47 if I need one.
    Or my trusty old M-14 from Marine Corps days :) Which I have not seen since 1967, but that is another thread.
    This is the way I feel. BUT A JURY might wonder, hey, what is he doing with an assault rifle? Those things are dangerous. He must be a hotshot and looking for stuff like this to go down so he can keep in practice. He has been watching way too many Charles Bronson Death Wish movies. Let's show him he can't do that stuff in our civilized society.......I can see a jury holding it against the shooter, whereas the hunter is a hunter and his rifle is not for shooting down people in the street.
    You can never ever ever tell what a jury will do, because one will convict, the next group of twelve hearing the same evidence might say not guilty, twelve more say yes, guilty. It is the single most scary thing in criminal law, the idea that your fate is up to six or twelve people. So yes, the assault rifle may make a difference. Maybe not.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  11. #56
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    So I suppose it may be safe to advise should one find themselves in such a situation and felt they should fire a shot, should it be to warn or to strike, given the choice between a hunting rifle or an assault rifle they should choose the former...

    Yes, this is only a scenario, conversation, food for thought. In no way do I mean to suggest that anyone should shoot at anyone else using any type of firearm. Interesting though, based on my conversation with this guy today, should you find yourself in a SD scenario in your home and you can arm yourself with an assault rifle, you might want to think twice and find something just as effective, yet less likely to draw a charge based on it's "scaryness factor"

    hAHA...I'm confused.. :D

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Yeah, if you are at home, people, some people, will ask why you chose the assault rifle (meaning that you should not have one and that this shooting probably never would have happened if you had not had one) So yes, I would always choose the lesser weapon if possible, and it is not what these people think, it is if one of these or six of these clowns is on a jury and you are on trial.
    You can never tell who will be on trial these days. I had a LEO whose brother pulled up a block ahead of a convenience store, LEO was in uniform coming home from work, sitting in the car as passenger. Brother goes into convenience store but to buy cocaine.
    Citywide drug control unit swoops in and grabs not only brother but LEO IN THE CAR and arrests him. This is no lie. At the arraignment the news media was there and I told them no interviews except that they are to print tomorrow morning that they are just like vultures looking for the kill, print it just like that, and they left, mad.
    When he got his not guilty at trial, we looked around, not a media person to be seen for miles.
    His being a LEO did not keep fellow LEOS from arresting him. Thankfully the jurors knew the truth.
    This is the same kind of ramification of firing a weapon and then there are ten thousand people second guessing you later on, and putting you on trial because of their own ignorance about the streets and how mean the streets really are.
    The reason I say all this is twofold.
    That you never know what will happen to you later, so you have to think ahead, and two, that there is no guarantee that you will get out of it in the legal system. It is really scary.
    I don't think we talk about these scenarios, even the whacked ones, to practice about what we would do in real life. We do it so we can see that instead of two or three sides to every story, there may be ten sides.

    I will mention, though, that juries in the South and in the West and Midwest know a h.... of a lot more about what should be done in shooting situations than people elsewhere. And this is a cultural thing.
    My dad was from Oklahoma and I grew up in Bakersfield CA, and lived in Texas for several years and guns are a part of life.
    In parts of the Northeast, especially the urban areas, guns are not a part of life and people ask me. First, is that loaded? And second, WHY do you carry it?
    So the mental climate around urban Northeast areas is not all that friendly toward firearms to begin with and the numbers of people who have ever held a gun is small. Consequently they have no real conception of self-defense via a firearm. So the things I am saying do not apply nationwide and I can see someone in Tennessee shaking his head saying I have it all wrong. That there is no need to walk on eggshells with these scenarios, but I am going at it from a large city in the East perspective, mostly.
    I can just see an Arkansas jury caring if it was an assault rifle or a handgun. I think common sense is more common in South and West. Especially concerning guns.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  13. #58
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    dcb188:
    ".......large city in the East perspective..."
    In some parts of the country, freedom loving people regard that mindset as "the Bill Clinton Assault Weapons Ban", which died a natural death a few moons ago.
    They gotta try to keep up.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I know. Is not my perspective, but theirs.
    Here is the way people around here look at guns.
    Suppose you walked into a bar or a mall with a flamethrower strapped to your back with all combat accessories and sat down and ordered a beer, or a meal.
    Exactly like that. The same stares, the same questions. The same fear.
    Fortunately this is a minority of states. But my analysis of scenarios always keeps this in mind, so you might say to yourself, this guy advocates doing nothing. Uh uh. We do something, we always try to help those who are victims.
    We just keep in mind what our little jurors might say about our guilt or innocence.
    Rural countryside South and West? Common sense. No need to worry.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  15. #60
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    I know. Is not my perspective, but theirs.
    An easy way to understand someone's perspective is to understand the difference between truth and fact. I expect that too many jurors don't know the difference. Consider:

    The temperature in a room is 72 degrees. There are two people in the room. One person likes hot weather so he feels that the room is too cold. The other person loves cold climates so the room is too warm for him.

    The truth is that the room is too cold for the hot weather guy and too warm for the cold weather guy.

    The fact is that the room temperature is 72 degrees.

    Truth is how each of us interpret the facts, or what we believe to be the facts. Different people can have different interpretations of the same set of facts. Neither person is being untruthful when they state their "truths" but neither person can be necessarily relied upon to be stating the facts.

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