What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness

This is a discussion on What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I can hear 'em. The assailant can't :) But he is definitely rehabilitated....

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Thread: What would YOU do?--Disabled Witness

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I can hear 'em. The assailant can't :) But he is definitely rehabilitated.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #77
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    Yes, definitely. And no relapses anticipated.

  4. #78
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I look forward to more scenarios......
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #79
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    Yes sir! Me too.

  6. #80
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    OK, you're a non-swimmer at the side of a public pool. The town bully is drowning your wimpy best friend. (He's turning blue now...) There is nobody else in the area. The maintenance crews have removed all the poles and pool tools for the winter. There is only one tethered life preserver available. But you do have your fully loaded .44 Auto Mag, wrapped in a towel... And your buddy did bring his brand new video iPod to show it off to you. Headphones too.

    Hey, this can be fun! But just kidding, no intention of starting a truly ridiculous scenario. I'll save it up for one that's worth the debate.

    BTW, is it expensive to stop leaks in pool walls caused by bullets? And lets not forget the MythBlasters episode that covered the effectiveness of a bullet once it hits water.

    On a serious note, is "jury nullification" actually illegal? If a jury decides on a "not guilty" verdict, can a judge overrule that and declare a "guilty" verdict? Would such an action hold up on appeal? Or, if a judge felt that there was a case of jury nullification, would the judge likely declare a mistrial to give the DA the option to try again?
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:22 AM.

  7. #81
    Member Array CURMUDGEON5's Avatar
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    snip>" ...is it expensive to stop leaks in pool walls caused by bullets?" <snip
    Not at all. Just let it leak until the water level gets below the hole. That'll git 'er done.

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    If a jury says NG that is it. If a jury says G, then the judge can act on a Motion for Judgment Non Obstante Veredicto. Judgement Notwithstanding the Verdict and say that legally speaking, there was not enough evidence presented to convict the defendant. And he would reverse their finding. But if there WAS enough and it just looked like D was Not Guilty and the jury said Guilty, nothing can be done. Jury has spoken.
    Only when the judge says no, it was impossible for the jury to say he was guilty because of insufficient evidence.
    Example: Suppose a crime has three elements, or components to it. You need all three, Two is not enough. The judge is listening to the entire trial and at the end, the jury comes back Guilty, The judge says as a matter of law, you did not have enough evidence.
    Much more common is a Directed Verdict, whereby at the close of the state's evidence, the defense moves for a Motion for A Directed Verdict, then the judge turns to the jury and says he or she is instructing the jury to find D not guilty, because the proof was not beyond a reasonable doubt. Takes it right out of their hands either before they have a chance to decide or after they decided. He is ordering the jury to find the defendant NG.
    But the NG is not changeable.

    These scenarios are fun. I don't care how whacked out they are. Who cares? They are only scenarios and we would be surprised to learn just how many of them have really occurred.
    Swimming pool. Imminent serious bodily injury or death. You can act to protect your buddy from being drowned. Force necessary to repel attacker.
    Just as a quick aside, in civil law there is no duty to assist anyone. You can be walking by a lake, see someone drowning twenty feet from you, shrug, keep on walking, no problem. No duty to come to anyone's aid.
    But IF you do come to his or her aid, you have to see it through in a non-negligent manner. E.g. You swim out, grab the swimmer, drag him under by mistake and he drowns. Your fault. Or you swim out, grab onto him, say, ah, I changed my mind, this is way too much trouble, you swim back. He drowns. Your fault. You came to his aid and did not see it through in a non-negligent manner. I mention this only as an aside as this is civil law. But I was reminded of it because in law school they gave a drowning guy case as an example.
    But in our swimming pool case, whatever force you need to repel imminent serious bodily injury or death.

    Jury nullfication seldom comes up, at least where I go, because it is attributed to other causes. I.e. jury must not have thought there was enough evidence or that it was not convincing evidence, so people who are observing do not always know that it was jury nullification.
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:22 AM.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  9. #83
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    With out knowing why the old dude was getting his butt kicked i would certainly not play sniper with my deer rifle!
    I might haul buggy down there and try to help or intervene.
    Heck, The old dude might be a pedoliphic neo-nazi atheist muslim extremist terrorist child molester democrat or something!...and I hate Democrats! [:-)
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Hi Bill: The original scenario by Rivers said that the shooter was disabled and basically confined to where he was, and had only a rifle. So it was a last resort type thing where the shooter helps out the old guy or doesn't.
    A very tough scenario and realistically police in a large city would be there before you knew it.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  11. #85
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Hi Bill: The original scenario by Rivers said that the shooter was disabled and basically confined to where he was, and had only a rifle. So it was a last resort type thing where the shooter helps out the old guy or doesn't.
    A very tough scenario and realistically police in a large city would be there before you knew it.
    aaaahhhh, my bad. thats what i get for fast screening to get caught up!

    Weeeeell then, I'd bust a cap in his arse...j/k

    Keep calling to po-po, 5-0, and Leo's and see who show's up first.
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  12. #86
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    There you go! One more BG off the streets and into instant rehab.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  13. #87
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    IMO, this is a situation for 911 and being a good witness.

    As someone else said, "You would have your head handed to you in court." Times have changed and no court in the land, that I am aware of, is going to call you a Hero until well after a trial.

    Trials are exspensive and unless you have an extra $50,000+ sitting around to flush down the toilet you are better off doing nothing more than being a good witness and summoning the local LEO's.

    Also, you do not know what has transpired and led up to this situation. While illegal it is certainly unstandable if the younger guy is the Father of a little girl that was molested by the older victim and while detaining the old guy for the Police he let his emotions get the better of him.

    I used to like these "scenarios" but I have found myself not reading them or participating much because of all the "Armchair Warriors" that just want to shoot every problem they encounter.

    Biker

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Actually you do have a valid point there about a lot of folks wondering how they CAN shoot in a situation instead of first exploring other ways around it. Good point.....
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  15. #89
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Thank you sir.

    Take care and stay safe.

    Biker

  16. #90
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    IMO, this is a situation for 911 and being a good witness.
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Also, you do not know what has transpired and led up to this situation. While illegal it is certainly unstandable if the younger guy is the Father of a little girl that was molested by the older victim and while detaining the old guy for the Police he let his emotions get the better of him.
    One of the variables offered included the victim being wife/daughter, another stated that both the victim and the BG were well known to the viewer. This was intended to focus the topic onto essentially this:

    In a situation where using a handgun at close range would be legally acceptable, when getting to a close range is not possible and there are no other viable options available, would using a rifle be equally acceptable? Assume that all other factors are the same: ability to hit the target, BG not responding to calls to stop, 9-1-1 call put on hold, no emergency services, no others in the area to help, and the victim has less than a minute before death or significant injury at the hands of the BG. All options have been explored leaving only the choice of whether a rifle shot is morally and legally on the same playing field as a handgun shot, or even a baseball bat to the back of the head.

    For me, everything rationally adds up to "the weapon does not make the difference when the result is the same." But being rational isn't the same as being moral, desirable or acceptable.

    As I'm writing this, I just thought how fundamentally similar this scenario is to the one faced by Harry Truman and the use of the A-bomb on Japan to end WWII.

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