May 2nd, 2008 09:03 AM
My take on it is that rushing in may not be the way to go. Its one of the 10 deadly sins of police officers as well as civilians, rushing when it may not be needed. Rolling up and just shooting someone that isn't plainly armed will definitly get you into trouble. Also, you don't know if there are already police on site, bailing out of the car weapon in hand might result on a blue on white engagement - also bad.
Assess the situation always. Situational awareness is the best tool you have, much better than a weapon. If the person in the front yard is a cop they should id themselves as such, but we all make mistakes, look for ID, badge, something. You are in the car, you can look non threatning while you have the weapon in your lap, and then engage if you need to.
Also, clearing a house is the most deadly form of combat one can pretty much engage in. I would say that yes, anyone just about is going to go in after a family member, just pointing out how bad it can be.
Best case is let the officers know through dispatch that you are there so that they are aware that you are on the scene so they may be a bit more reserved about shooting you when they arrive, go ahead and get the family member, hunker down, barricade, and keep 911 on the line to apprise the officers of whats up so they can clear the rest of the house and come get you.
As for that good hearted girl -BS! I'm running the BS flag up on that one. People know better than that, they are always someone's little sweetheart - even the nastiest murders around grew up and if they had family they thought they were just a little rambunctious or something. I hate that garbage. They may have been, but they are not anymore, stop crying for them and let them serve their time.
Sorry, guess I went on a bit of a rant there. I'll get off my soap box and craw into the woodline again.
May 2nd, 2008 09:29 AM
Thinking thru "what ifs" is good. I would suggest brushing up of your state laws with consideration of deadly force and try to equate that into any scenarios you come up with. Knowing what is legal before something happens might help tailor you real life response to a situation.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
May 2nd, 2008 09:54 AM
Great point. The state laws control. They may not cover things very specifically but the general rules are always there.
That would be the first place to start. Something in Montana may not apply in Pennsylvania. Good point.
Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".
May 2nd, 2008 12:55 PM
I agree with "brushing up on state law."
Once you use lethal force the "Dirtbag, Scumbag, Nefarious Felon, or whatever you want to call them goes from being the previous to a living, breathing human being with hopes, dreams, loved ones, etc, etc. In short, you better be RIGHT 100% OF THE TIME.
As it has been said, there are no "do-overs". Rushing to the scene is foolish, although a likely human emotion that we should fight. You are walking in to a situation where you do not know all the facts. Assessing the situation is crucial. What if your Daughter has been wounded and needs medical help to stop a bleeding arterial wound before she "bleeds out"?
You are busy holding the suspected "perp" when you could and should be applying pressure to a bleeding artery. Since you didn't assess the situation properly you are already wrong from the start, IMHO.
This scenario has too many ways to go south, without you knowing it. What if it's a friend of your Daughter's, playing a prank. Ramming their car is foolish, blocking it in is not, maybe. Sorry, but I see too many of these scenarios and all anyone wants to consider using from their toolbox is the one tool that should be a "last resort".
If you really want to race about town at high speeds and have that adrenaline rush, and pull your gun out of it's Holster on lots of people go join your local Police Department. Otherwise, leave it to the professionals.
May 2nd, 2008 02:49 PM
In response to what I think is the original question: How to live emotionally with the aftermath of killing someone?
2. supportive family and friends
3. some sort of belief system that you take comfort in (ie: religion)
Not all four options are necessary, but some combination of the above will likely be needed.
I've seen the mother's of murderers mantain time and time again that their son was a "good boy" and believe in their innocence in the face of overwhelming proof. Parents are not immune to denial, in fact I'm fairly certain I suffer from it...though my kids really haven't killed anyone...yet.
I believe that one needs to be firm and comfortable in their beliefs before purchasing a gun for self defense. I have my own rationale for why I carry, it is what "works for me" and is not necessarily endorsed by anyone on the internet. I hope/pray/live under the delusion that by living my beliefs and morals if I should ever shoot someone I would be able to live with myself.
I've seen things in my career that are far worse than death. I've watched people struggle with awful circumstances that make death seem attractive (indeed some chose that path). Getting raped/beaten/etc may be easier for some people to survive than killing another human or accidently killing an innocent bystander. This qualifies those people as sheep and they are looked down on my many posters here as well as other self defense gun sites. Not everyone is a sheepdog, sheepdog are not superior to sheep, AND we are humans not a simplified analogy in real life anyway. The world I live in is not black and white, and I suspect yours has alot of shades of grey in it as well.
Good luck in your musings and introspection.
May 2nd, 2008 05:51 PM
So mom got a text-message from her 13 yr old daughter that there were home invaders, and you denigrate her for racing home because she just wanted an "adrenaline rush".
Yeah, that must have been it.
May 2nd, 2008 06:32 PM
To a degree, yes, I will agonize again over another life or death encounter.
So, do you agonize over this at all? Have you ever thought about being forced to kill someone who's not truly a hardcore criminal, but in fact just someone who's only just beginning to head down the wrong path? Someone who's just fallen in with the wrong crowd, or maybe even just rebelling a bit against mommy and daddy to see what they'll say?
I prepare for the "aftermath" of a shooting. I won't tell you how I prepare, but I will give you a hint. I have the name and number of a local "shrink" that specializes in OIS's. I also have a belief system and family support that has seen me through three encounters, and may have to again. I have a few friends that came out of the woodwork after my last encounter. They are true friends, and I hope and pray that I will never have to be there for them like they were there for me, but I stand ready to do so. I also lost a few friends, and people I thought were my friends.
I train frequently, and like to shoot, but I am slow to use force, as it is a "tool of last resort". I hope I never have to draw my weapon again, but I stand prepared to do so. I feel that I know my employer's policy of Use Of Force, and I get training yearly on it. I also know when I can use my weapons and when I can't. There is no substitute for knowing the policies, laws and procedures, and having a good attorney on Speed Dial.
Take care and stay safe.
May 4th, 2008 05:07 AM
I don't think I could actually draw unless someone very intimidating was coming right at me or the family (and I was scared for them). Of course, there's always that "perp" you suspect who is coming out of your house like in this scenariio in which case I'd be so tempted to draw and command her to lay on the ground until the police arrive. However, if she's running off, technically I cannot do it. The brandishing laws are clear, but different potential scenarios still raise a lot of questions and it always seems to end in a gray area.
It is utterly illogical to believe that passing laws to reduce gun violence will be successful when those who are commiting the gun violence do not obey the law.
May 5th, 2008 09:57 PM
In the original scenario as written it would depend on how close the girl is when you are closing on the house. Thirty feet? She lives. Ten feet? She gets popped. I go through the house like a buzz saw until I get to my baby girl. Anybody between me and my daughter is in DEEP DOO DOO!
As an answer to the emotional side of it: Death is an occupational hazard of being a criminal! I might feel bad for shooting someone but I'd feel damn good about saving my daughter!
It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.
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