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Could have drawn, but didn't

4K views 33 replies 29 participants last post by  farronwolf 
#1 ·
So, I have a new job as the district circulation manager for a newspaper here in Alaska, which basically means that I get the unenviable task of driving a paper route when a carrier quits or some such fun-ness... Anyway, it sucks, but I'm a well paid paper boy so I keep the job.

I was driving a route today, new to me, listening to a route tape made by my predecessor. The tape got a bit confusing at one point and I made a wrong turn looking for the newspaper tube. While driving up an Alaskan excuse for a road, I came upon a No Trespassing sign, but this was probably the 20th such sign I had driven through to deliver papers. Apparently, newspaper delivery for customer does not constitute trespassing :tongue:.

After driving about 30 yards, I realized that I was in the wrong place and decided to make a 4 point turn to head back out in search of the correct home to make the delivery. As I began to back up the first time, I noticed a crazed man running out of a trailer with a Rifle, pointed, not aimed, at my car while screaming and cursing.

Under my left thigh was my Kimber .45 and my first thought was to draw, but right at this time I realized that this guy was not an immediate danger, as the gun was now being held in one hand by the stock as he began screaming at me to leave, not to mention that the bolt was back.

I apologized for my mistake, told him I was the paper boy and had made a wrong turn and proceeded to finish my four point turn to leave. It is mighty difficult to turn a Ford Explorer with one hand on the hilt of my gun... :blink:

I know that, by the definition of the law, I could have drawn my gun and even fired, but in the second or so that it all unfolded, I realized that this guy was much like a grouse, who puffs out his chest to seem bigger. I'm pretty sure he had some operation going on and really wanted to be left alone, which I doubt is a reality since I reported it to the State Troopers.

What did I learn you ask? Well, it is simple, be aware. Every moment I'm out of the house, especially on these routes, I keep a very high situational awareness. I could have dropped the guy and been in the legal right. There was a gun which was pointed at my car which was enough to draw and fire, but I decided that a calm head was much better and never had to use deadly force to deescalate the situation(simply pointing a gun at an individual is the use of deadly force).

I pray every single day when I put my gun on my hip that I would never have to use it for it's intended purpose. Today is the closest I had ever come to needing to do just that. If my family had been with me and I had made the same mistake, the situation may have been different, but I thank God that all ended peacefully. I finished my route and let the authorities handle it.
 
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#4 ·
I'm sure the adrenaline was pumping...you remained calm (on the outside)...no one got hurt...and you're not being interviewed by the police in the presence of a lawyer.
Another good day...:hand10:

Stay armed...stay calm...stay safe!
 
#5 ·
I know that, by the definition of the law, I could have drawn my gun and even fired, but in the second or so that it all unfolded, I realized that this guy was much like a grouse, who puffs out his chest to seem bigger.
I am not sure how I understand this...

If you trespassed upon somebody's property, and he confronted you armed, and you drew and fired, I believe you would be going to jail for a very long time.

If you trespassed upon my property, there is a very good chance I would be holding a rifle or pistol when I confronted you, and I just can't think of a way for you to be legaly in the clear if you drew on me.

On a side note, I would not have wanted to be in your shoes when the other guy had a rifle...

Be careful out there.
 
#6 ·
I am not sure how I understand this...

If you trespassed upon somebody's property, and he confronted you armed, and you drew and fired, I believe you would be going to jail for a very long time.
I have to admit, this was my first thought too. Glad it worked out for you!

Stay safe up there! :urla9ub:
 
#8 ·
The simple act of driving on a driveway does not legally allow someone to use deadly force, which is what this man did, by definition.

To point a deadly weapon, for any reason, constitutes the use of deadly force. At no point did I even leave this guys driveway or even leave my vehicle.

While I agree that, if I had actually entered his residence, he would have been justified in bringing his weapon to bear, I highly doubt that this circumstance would justify him in any way.

There seems to be much more to this than someone protecting his property.

AS 11.46.320. Criminal Trespass in the First Degree.

(a) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass in the first degree if the person enters or remains unlawfully

(1) on land with intent to commit a crime on the land; or

(2) in a dwelling.

(b) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.
I did not enter the land with the intent to commit a crime, I was in the process of leaving, and I had a justifiable reason for making the mistake and was in the process of completing verifiable employment. At no point did I even exit my vehicle. The fact is that the man came at me using deadly force, which could have brought a much different response.
 
#14 ·
The simple act of driving on a driveway does not legally allow someone to use deadly force, which is what this man did, by definition.
Exactly. Even in a state with a well defined Castle Law, it would not be hard to prove that the delivery man already in the act of turning around to leave does not constitute a lethal threat to the property owner. Therefore the property owner is not engaging in self defense by pointing a firearm at the trespasser, therefore the trespasser (with a decent lawyer :smile:) would have a decent self defense argument.

Anyway, good use of your primary weapon---your brain---instead of your emergency weapon. :hand10:
 
#10 ·
I don't think I would want to be on the jury for this one, but I think you might be in the clear.

In NY, the threat of deadly attack from a BG must be imminent, and not just threatening, before retaliation. Good job keeping cool!
 
#12 ·
I think you did the right thing by not drawing.
Anyone can draw. The question is, do we need to to protect ourselves or are we just doing it because it is legally okay to do so?
Drawing would have meant that you would have been in the right, perhaps, but with a rifle bullet in you, as he looks like he was ready to fire.
It is not really clear that you would have been in the right, when he feels like he has a trespasser on his hands and for all we know, has had a couple of young thugs up at his place before this, hence the rifle at the ready. So dropping him because he is running and cursing and has the rifle, unless he took shots, it is not at all clear that you could legally just drop him.
On the other hand, he was overreacting big time and you were there accidentally but he did not know that, figured you might be there to stir up trouble. So from his point of view you are trespassing, although you were just lost.
So it is not only what you are thinking but what he is thinking. Good call on your part to just leave, not that you did anything wrong. But anyone who is chasing and screaming etc it is not a big step to pulling the trigger of his rifle. But these things often do not have just two sides, they may have three or ten angles to it. One thing is for sure. You did good. Exactly the right thing, in my view, and it is only one view of many.
 
#18 ·
{but right at this time I realized that this guy was not an immediate danger, as the gun was now being held in one hand by the stock as he began screaming at me to leave, not to mention that the bolt was back.}

After trespassing, and with those conditions I would argue you did not have a just cause to use deadly force, and therefore could not have drawn without potentially being charged if it went far enough.

However, I also am pleased it came out OK. It was an honest mistake anyone could have made.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#20 ·
I'd hate to be on the jury for this one.

Homeowner investigating a traspasser on his property versus a Paperboy delivering papers. I commend you for not drawing and making a bad situation worse. +1 :congrats:

Anytime you can keep from drawing your gun, let alone having to shoot, is a win in my book.

Biker :tumbleweed:
 
#25 ·
Good job sasomers... you were ready but thank God you you didn't need to protect yourself. :hand10:
 
#27 ·
my area of oklahoma has gotten pretty bad like this. in the last couple of years, i have been run off of land that i was hunting on at gun point 3 times.

both times i had permission to be there from the land owner, but it was always their son/brother/friend trying to keep people off of the land.

it always makes me angry, but every time i have just complied and there was no further trouble.

but someone running up to me with a gun drawn when i have a shotgun/rifle seems dumb on their part, and rediculous to say the least.

trespassing on land, not home or backyard should not warrant gun point imo.
 
#28 ·
I am glad things turned out well for you and that you didn't present your gun.

I do have some concerns as to how you would have been justified in presenting your weapon, thereby standing your ground on another persons property? I don't know what the laws are in Alaska, but here in Texas that isn't even close to legal. You may want to check into your state law and clarify whether or not it is in fact legal for you to pull your gun on a homeowner/property owner who is telling you to leave his property after you have passed a no trespassing sign.

I will tell you this, in Texas, had you presented your weapon the land owner would be fully justified in shooting you for pulling a gun on him on his own property. And as others have stated not a good idea to go against a rifle with a pistol. I am serious about checking into the laws in your state, because I don't believe you assessed the legality of what you thought of doing correctly.

Oh, and get power steering if you can't turn your Explorer with one hand. :smile:
 
#29 ·
I'm pretty sure he had some operation going on and really wanted to be left alone, which I doubt is a reality since I reported it to the State Troopers.
So the guy was over the top with his response :comeandgetsome:(at least in Alaska) to a trespass. What came of him and his visit with the State Troopers?
 
#30 · (Edited)
You did the right thing, that is one of the toughest decisions a CHL person has to make - to draw or not to draw your weapon. What is really bad is it is a split second decision that would take a very long time for lawyers and judges to debate in a court of law.

The old saying among police officers goes like this, first you go home, then your partner goes home, and then the rest of the shift goes home. It is always a good shift when you come home alive for a police officer, firefighter, glorified paper boy or ordinary citizen with a CHL.:hand2:
 
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