Could have drawn, but didn't
This is a discussion on Could have drawn, but didn't within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, I have a new job as the district circulation manager for a newspaper here in Alaska, which basically means that I get the unenviable ...
May 5th, 2008 04:04 PM
Could have drawn, but didn't
So, I have a new job as the district circulation manager for a newspaper here in Alaska, which basically means that I get the unenviable task of driving a paper route when a carrier quits or some such fun-ness... Anyway, it sucks, but I'm a well paid paper boy so I keep the job.
I was driving a route today, new to me, listening to a route tape made by my predecessor. The tape got a bit confusing at one point and I made a wrong turn looking for the newspaper tube. While driving up an Alaskan excuse for a road, I came upon a No Trespassing sign, but this was probably the 20th such sign I had driven through to deliver papers. Apparently, newspaper delivery for customer does not constitute trespassing .
After driving about 30 yards, I realized that I was in the wrong place and decided to make a 4 point turn to head back out in search of the correct home to make the delivery. As I began to back up the first time, I noticed a crazed man running out of a trailer with a Rifle, pointed, not aimed, at my car while screaming and cursing.
Under my left thigh was my Kimber .45 and my first thought was to draw, but right at this time I realized that this guy was not an immediate danger, as the gun was now being held in one hand by the stock as he began screaming at me to leave, not to mention that the bolt was back.
I apologized for my mistake, told him I was the paper boy and had made a wrong turn and proceeded to finish my four point turn to leave. It is mighty difficult to turn a Ford Explorer with one hand on the hilt of my gun...
I know that, by the definition of the law, I could have drawn my gun and even fired, but in the second or so that it all unfolded, I realized that this guy was much like a grouse, who puffs out his chest to seem bigger. I'm pretty sure he had some operation going on and really wanted to be left alone, which I doubt is a reality since I reported it to the State Troopers.
What did I learn you ask? Well, it is simple, be aware. Every moment I'm out of the house, especially on these routes, I keep a very high situational awareness. I could have dropped the guy and been in the legal right. There was a gun which was pointed at my car which was enough to draw and fire, but I decided that a calm head was much better and never had to use deadly force to deescalate the situation(simply pointing a gun at an individual is the use of deadly force).
I pray every single day when I put my gun on my hip that I would never have to use it for it's intended purpose. Today is the closest I had ever come to needing to do just that. If my family had been with me and I had made the same mistake, the situation may have been different, but I thank God that all ended peacefully. I finished my route and let the authorities handle it.
May 5th, 2008 04:04 PM
May 5th, 2008 04:07 PM
Staying calm saved you a lot of trouble down the line. Glad everything came out alright.
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
May 5th, 2008 04:30 PM
+1 on staying calm and reading the situation.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
May 5th, 2008 04:42 PM
I'm sure the adrenaline was pumping...you remained calm (on the outside)...no one got hurt...and you're not being interviewed by the police in the presence of a lawyer.
Another good day...
Stay armed...stay calm...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
May 5th, 2008 05:08 PM
I am not sure how I understand this...
Originally Posted by sasomers
If you trespassed upon somebody's property, and he confronted you armed, and you drew and fired, I believe you would be going to jail for a very long time.
If you trespassed upon my property, there is a very good chance I would be holding a rifle or pistol when I confronted you, and I just can't think of a way for you to be legaly in the clear if you drew on me.
On a side note, I would not have wanted to be in your shoes when the other guy had a rifle...
Be careful out there.
May 5th, 2008 05:35 PM
I have to admit, this was my first thought too. Glad it worked out for you!
Originally Posted by Kerbouchard
Stay safe up there!
May 5th, 2008 05:37 PM
Excellent situational awareness. That's the best outcome there.
May 5th, 2008 05:57 PM
The simple act of driving on a driveway does not legally allow someone to use deadly force, which is what this man did, by definition.
To point a deadly weapon, for any reason, constitutes the use of deadly force. At no point did I even leave this guys driveway or even leave my vehicle.
While I agree that, if I had actually entered his residence, he would have been justified in bringing his weapon to bear, I highly doubt that this circumstance would justify him in any way.
There seems to be much more to this than someone protecting his property.
I did not enter the land with the intent to commit a crime, I was in the process of leaving, and I had a justifiable reason for making the mistake and was in the process of completing verifiable employment. At no point did I even exit my vehicle. The fact is that the man came at me using deadly force, which could have brought a much different response.
AS 11.46.320. Criminal Trespass in the First Degree.
(a) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass in the first degree if the person enters or remains unlawfully
(1) on land with intent to commit a crime on the land; or
(2) in a dwelling.
(b) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.
May 5th, 2008 06:31 PM
Thank you for bring a new question to my mind. I will have to think about this for a while.
This is why I love this forum, It really brings up questions I may no have worked out in my head yet.
May 5th, 2008 06:32 PM
I don't think I would want to be on the jury for this one, but I think you might be in the clear.
In NY, the threat of deadly attack from a BG must be imminent, and not just threatening, before retaliation. Good job keeping cool!
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
-- Benjamin Franklin
May 5th, 2008 06:40 PM
This one would be a little sketchy at best; I think you did the best you could have.
"Just blame Sixto"
M&P Doc- Just ask.
May 5th, 2008 08:08 PM
I think you did the right thing by not drawing.
Anyone can draw. The question is, do we need to to protect ourselves or are we just doing it because it is legally okay to do so?
Drawing would have meant that you would have been in the right, perhaps, but with a rifle bullet in you, as he looks like he was ready to fire.
It is not really clear that you would have been in the right, when he feels like he has a trespasser on his hands and for all we know, has had a couple of young thugs up at his place before this, hence the rifle at the ready. So dropping him because he is running and cursing and has the rifle, unless he took shots, it is not at all clear that you could legally just drop him.
On the other hand, he was overreacting big time and you were there accidentally but he did not know that, figured you might be there to stir up trouble. So from his point of view you are trespassing, although you were just lost.
So it is not only what you are thinking but what he is thinking. Good call on your part to just leave, not that you did anything wrong. But anyone who is chasing and screaming etc it is not a big step to pulling the trigger of his rifle. But these things often do not have just two sides, they may have three or ten angles to it. One thing is for sure. You did good. Exactly the right thing, in my view, and it is only one view of many.
Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".
May 5th, 2008 09:31 PM
I think you did a good job of evaluating the situation and driving out of the area.No need to escalate.
May 5th, 2008 09:50 PM
“What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia
SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.
May 5th, 2008 10:02 PM
Think how different you might have felt if you had not been carrying at the time. Good job on the self-control BTW.
Walk steathly - and carry a big Springfield.
By texas in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: July 14th, 2009, 11:29 AM
By gwlammers in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: March 4th, 2009, 02:00 PM
By Chorizo in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: February 16th, 2009, 05:59 PM
By Tactician in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: January 9th, 2005, 10:22 PM