My bank was robbed - merged, updated & crime solved - Page 4

My bank was robbed - merged, updated & crime solved

This is a discussion on My bank was robbed - merged, updated & crime solved within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by QKShooter Well, you can search for indicators and telltale signs of what may or may not go down and "Watch Those Hands" ...

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Thread: My bank was robbed - merged, updated & crime solved

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Well, you can search for indicators and telltale signs of what may or may not go down and "Watch Those Hands" but, it's impossible to accurately predict human behavior in split seconds especially when drug addictions are involved.
    As has been proved many times in the past already in various other robberies passive submission is no guarantee of personal safety.

    But, statistically a bank robbery will happen without shots being fired by the robber.
    Statistically if that is wrong (in your particular scenario) then you could be "just another statistic" yourself.

    Only you know how quickly you can gain access to your firearm and how competant you are with it.
    Then you'll need to add a large helping of SHTF into the recipe and then put everything you have into coming out on top.
    Well said, statistically I won't need my CCW and a extra mag today, but that don't mean everything is going to go as planned!
    I think I will try to be on the surviving end of the statistics and keep it with me!
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  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The best thing to do is to cooperate. with the gunman unless he starts shooting patrons. Just remember that there are innocent people in the line of fire and any shooting on your part should be as a last resort. I think that might be the reason a lot of banks do not use armed guards anymore.

  3. #48
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Drawing and firing your weapon is an absolute last resort, and should only be done if you're reasonably certain that the perps intend to harm somebody.

    Don't automatically draw and start shooting just because they tell everybody to get on the ground as the robbery begins to unfold. That's very common during a bank robbery, and isn't an indication that they intend to start executing people.

    Be very alert and observant. Even if they have masks on, observe them closely, in order to determine things that can help identify them---race, approximate height/weight, accents if any, clothing etc.

    If they don't intend to harm anybody, let them flee. Give any helpful info to the police.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I need some advice about when they tell everyone to get on the ground, because if we wait until they start executing people, and now we also are on the ground, wouldn't drawing a weapon when we are down, be more obvious and/or more difficult to do? I mean, wouldn't we be at a disadvantage on the floor like that. And if we wait to see, and they DO start executing, then we just lost one life and the next one may be our own because we gave the BG too much leeway, let him control the entire thing.
    So I could use some advice on that part, since only the BG knows what he will do next.
    How common is it during bank robberies, to have folks get on the floor or herd them in the back? Does anyone have a rough idea of the percentage?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  5. #50
    Member Array 1911packer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defensive Arms View Post
    Drawing and firing your weapon is an absolute last resort, and should only be done if you're reasonably certain that the perps intend to harm somebody.

    Don't automatically draw and start shooting just because they tell everybody to get on the ground as the robbery begins to unfold. That's very common during a bank robbery, and isn't an indication that they intend to start executing people.

    Be very alert and observant. Even if they have masks on, observe them closely, in order to determine things that can help identify them---race, approximate height/weight, accents if any, clothing etc.

    If they don't intend to harm anybody, let them flee. Give any helpful info to the police.
    If you are saying to allow the BGs to put you on the floor, for any reason, I couldn't disagree with you more. Once they get you on the floor, you are out of options and you are the sheep of sheep. You are TOTALLY at their mercy.

    There are other factors to consider before you start shooting, but when the order is given to get down on the floor, it is time to get proactive in trying to save your life.

    I will die on my feet before I let an armed madman remove all of my options to protect my life.

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    That is what I said in a much earlier post on this thread. We should not have to wait and see if they execute. Same goes for this herding in the back room nonsense, too. Too late once you get back there.
    We cannot be blamed if we kill an armed gunman or gunmen just because we could not read their minds. They chose the course of action, when they chose to rob a bank, so anything that happens to them is the same as when we go to a ballgame and get hit with a baseball, it is called assumption of risk.
    They do not have a right to be left alone as long as they are robbing the bank "harmlessly".
    Certainly, if we can, let them get the money and run, but not when they feel like taking some folks out first.
    Last edited by dcb188; May 21st, 2008 at 05:50 PM. Reason: one typo
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  7. #52
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911packer View Post
    If you are saying to allow the BGs to put you on the floor, for any reason, I couldn't disagree with you more. Once they get you on the floor, you are out of options and you are the sheep of sheep. You are TOTALLY at their mercy.

    There are other factors to consider before you start shooting, but when the order is given to get down on the floor, it is time to get proactive in trying to save your life.

    I will die on my feet before I let an armed madman remove all of my options to protect my life.
    I'm sorry you're not a skilled enough shooter to draw and fire capably from a prone position, which can actually be an advantage in many situations.

    The overwhelming majority of bank robbers have no intention of executing customers. They just want to get as much money as they can, then run. Every bank in the country has multiple video cameras, so the perps know that killing customers isn't going to prevent the police from getting a complete description of them. In almost all bank robberies the perps don't shoot anybody, UNLESS of course some John Wayne type decides to play hero and resist.

    It's VERY COMMON for customers to be ordered to lay on the ground during a bank robbery, so they can't run out the door and alert police or otherwise interfere with the robbery. It doesn't mean they intend to kill anybody.

    In fact, if you draw prematurely and a shootout ensues, YOU will be ultimately responsible for starting it and for any innocents who get killed in the crossfire. Also, in most states banks are "no carry" zones, even for CC permit holders.

    If you draw prematurely and end up getting innocents killed, you'll very likely have your carry permit permanently revoked, and may very well get the bejeezus sued out of you by angry relatives of the deceased innocents.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    If it is that common, then I would have to rethink it a bit. There is something about complying with orders that may serve to hinder you in a couple of minutes when you need to be on your feet. But you have a point if the vast majority of bank robberies go down like that, then it is best to avoid the gunfight, naturally. We just balk a little at what we might see as a pre-execution measure.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  9. #54
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Same goes for this herding in the back room nonsense, too. Too late once you get back there.
    Sorry, I don't give up that easy. In fact, it's my firm opinion that being herded into a back room might actually confer an advantage, IF you're a good tactical thinker.

    Let's say we have three armed perps. You're standing in the middle of a wide-open bank lobby when the robbery starts to go down. A not-so-great idea is to panic and start shooting at the perps. They're not going to be so stupid as to line themselves up like ducks for you to shoot them. They'll most likely be spread out in the lobby, making it very difficult for even a skilled defensive shooter to take them all out.

    You might get lucky and take one of them out, then the other two will promptly shoot you and any customers who happen to get caught in the crossfire. NOT a good resolution to the problem.

    Another thing to think about is that the perps might have a "backup man" already in the bank, who you think is just another customer. You open fire on the guys you know to be perps, then the backup man who was standing "innocently" behind you a second ago, promptly puts a bullet in the back of your head.

    Rather than playing "Quick Draw McGraw" and getting yourself and other innocents killed, you take a "wait and see" approach. You go along with any reasonable commands the robbers make, while observing the entire area, assessing the situation, and coming up with a "game plan" in case the perps decide to start executing.

    The perps decide they're going to herd everybody in the vault. They're spread out through the lobby, and you're still in the middle with no cover, so it's not time to play Clint Eastwood yet.

    One perp stands outside the vault, herding everybody in. What I would do in this situation is walk inside the vault, and move immediately to a place where the perp standing outside couldn't see me, and draw my weapon.

    The first perp through the door would take a .45 ACP headshot at close range. I would then immediately shout for any customers in the vault to get on the ground, then I would get behind any available cover.

    A lot of bank vaults have counters, where customers can set down the contents of their deposit boxes after they open them. That would be as good a place as any for cover.

    There's no way the perps outside could shoot through the walls of a bank vault. The only way they could harm anybody is to come through the open doorway of the vault, which wouldn't be wise, considering I'd have a high capacity .45 automatic trained on the door.

    Use your head, think tactically and wait for the right moment to strike. Trigger happy concealed carriers who panic and start shooting immediately, will most likely end up getting themselves and other innocents killed.

    Of course the anti-CC news media and politicians will have a propaganda field day afterward, self-righteously braying like jackazzes about "yet another obvious example of the dangers of legal concealed carry."

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    So you do agree that you would not be herded into a back room. That was my view also. That it might be too late if you did not do something either on the way or immediately upon arrival. Herding could mean execution. I don't want to wait to see if they are going along with the program in that most bank robberies do not involve executions.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  11. #56
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    So you do agree that you would not be herded into a back room. That was my view also. That it might be too late if you did not do something either on the way or immediately upon arrival. Herding could mean execution. I don't want to wait to see if they are going along with the program in that most bank robberies do not involve executions.
    No, that's not what I said, dcb.

    I pointed out that being "herded" into the safe may actually give you a tactical advantage. As previously stated, upon entering the safe I would immediately move to an area where the perp outside the door couldn't see me, and draw.

    Once the perp gets everybody inside the safe, his own next action would decide whether he lived or died. If he enters the safe after he gets everybody in, he takes a headshot at close range. It would be virtually impossible for his pals to enter the safe after they heard the shot, because they would have to pass through the vault entrance, which I'd have a high capacity .45 trained on. They'd be sitting ducks as they came through the door.

    If the perp stays outside and starts to close the vault door, that's a clear indication he simply intends to lock us in the vault while they make their getaway. In that scenario, I would hold my fire and let them leave.

    I believe just about the worst thing you could do in a situation where you have multiple armed perps spread out in a bank, and you're in the middle of the lobby with no cover, is just start shooting if they simply order you to get down or something.

    You might get one, but the other two will most likely shoot you. Three against one is never good odds, especially when they're spread out.

    And as I explained before, they might have a "backup man" in the bank who you're not aware of, who will promptly put a bullet in the back of your head.

    People rarely get killed in bank robberies, UNLESS they do something stupid by attempting to resist under the wrong circumstances or at the wrong time. In most bank robberies, the perps are smart enough to know that the silent alarm has probably already gone off, so they're just trying to get the money and get the hell out fast.

    They also know they're already been videotaped by the security cameras, so there's no need to kill anybody to keep the cops from getting a description of them.

    In this type of situation, ESPECIALLY involving multiple perps, you MUST use your head at all times, or you and other innocents will very likely die. Often the best choice is not to shoot at all. Regardless of which action you select, choose wisely---very wisely.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    That is what I meant, that you would do something either on your way or once you were back there but you would not allow yourself to be herded into some backroom without at that point trying to do something. I think we agree on that.
    I think the rule of thumb is this, during a bank robbery, to NEVER do anything on the offense unless you have to, you just plain have to, where you feel you really must do something and do it quick. Otherwise the wrong people might get hurt.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  13. #58
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    I think the rule of thumb is this, during a bank robbery, to NEVER do anything on the offense unless you have to, you just plain have to, where you feel you really must do something and do it quick. Otherwise the wrong people might get hurt.
    Well said, dcb. I agree.

    Take an empty pistol and practice drawing and aiming while in the prone position. Never assume you're going to be able to fire in self-defense from a standing position, using a "picture perfect" Weaver or Isosceles stance.

    Practice drawing while sitting in your car. Practice drawing while sitting at a desk, in your easy chair, at a table, in your bed etc.

    Those who are prepared for a wide variety of different scenarios, are the most likely to survive if and when a real incident goes down.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Can you imagine doing drawing practice while sitting in your car, as you suggested, and a LEO walks by or drives by? Oh hi officer, just practicing my fast draw in case I have to shoot a bad guy? Oh okay sir, I thought it was just that, not a problem, have a nice day........just kidding. Better to practice at home......
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    I'm drawing at the first chance I get after I see a weapon(period)
    If I happen to lose and get you killed, my bad!
    But you don't know they will hurt anyone
    You don't know they won't!
    The numbers matter and layout, but I'm not getting shot(or watch someone get shot) without trying to clear leather.
    If I get a chance, the first clue he will have is a burning hole in his chest!
    I think of spiderman he watched the BG run right past him to KILL his uncle in the street.( I know that's the movies but it happens).
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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