Being sued for giving chase and collateral damage - Page 2

Being sued for giving chase and collateral damage

This is a discussion on Being sued for giving chase and collateral damage within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Janq As to non criminal civil liability though Mr. Koh's ill advised and unlawful actions directly precipitated the robbers equally ill advised ...

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Thread: Being sued for giving chase and collateral damage

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As to non criminal civil liability though Mr. Koh's ill advised and unlawful actions directly precipitated the robbers equally ill advised and unlawful _reaction_ to fire on him...which directly resulted in the loss of Saloman's life and the real loss toward his wife, business partner (wife), and the estate which may be inclusive of his business along with his wife and heirs.


    - Janq
    I am not saying that I agree with Mr Koh's actions, but can you tell me what he did that was unlawful? Based on the article, I can not tell what speed they were going, if they exceeded the speed limits or not. That is about the only thing that I can see that may be unlawful about following someone or a group that has stolen money.

    And yes I agree with those that feel that the store and Mr. Koh are being sued because they are the ones with the money and ability to pay. The 5 criminals who will hopefully and rightly spend time in prison will not have the means or ability to pay any damages. It is a bad thing that Mr. Saloman is dead, but the persons responsible for the death are the 5 criminals whom robbed the stored and fired the bullet that killed him. It is a sad day when people look to parties with money instead of trying to hold guilty parties responsible for criminal actions.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Wolf,

    It's unlawful to chase people at "high speeds" on public thoroughfares.
    The speed they were going was not specifically stated in the article, not that as much matters anyway as this a not a criminal case but a civil suit. There is a big difference between the two.

    - Janq

    David,

    Firing of the gun was part and parcel to the final result, loss, and does not stand on it's own here nor is it intervening.

    As to forseeing things I don't follow where you get that from. Foresight is not relevant and I did not mention as much in my prior posts (?).

    As another analogy lets say you come home from a hard days work and walk up to your door on foot only to see a burglar running out the back of your house (rear exit) with what appears to be your laptop PC in hand. You yell "Hey $%*@#)_*! Stop!" and of course dude does not and keeps on keepin' on. So you make the conscious purposeful decision to give chase, on foot.
    The robber notes this and heads for a neighbors wooden picket fence, scales it, and he hits the ground on the other side still rollin'.
    Now here you come again giving chase. You hit that fence and attempt to scale it only you weight lets say 320 lbs. and the fence it buckles under your weight and it in part is damaged. You keep going though unaware of the damage you have done and the BG running and looking behind at you chasing him he winds up running into your neighbor who is standing in her own year unaware of all that is and has gone on prior to the BG running her down. She is 75 and upon being hit and run over to the ground by th burglar she breaks her wrist, upper arm, and fractures her pelvis.
    The BG keeps running and you stop to offer aid to your now very badly injured neighbor. Later the BG is caught by the po-po and your laptop recovered as well as the robber down the road tried and sentenced for burglary and assault (against the neighbor).
    Guess who will be dinged for the neighbors very real damages? Yep, you.
    Her fence/property as well as her medical bills along with other losses she might have incurred including pain and suffering...those bills will come to you. And she or her insurance underwriters or estate if she winds up dying of her injuries would not be wrong or immoral or money grubbing law suit hungry meanies to do so coming after you as being directly culpable toward her/their losses. :\

    Look I don't make the rules, I just recognize and walk amongst them.
    In this case it is what it is and though Mr. Koh meant well and intended no direct harm toward anyone if even the five robbers, still in the end his direct actions caused an effect which unfortunately and unexpectedly directly resulted in Mr. Saloman's loss.
    In civil court a person or entity (Saloman's estate) has the right to make claim against another person/s (Mr. Koh) or entity (Mr. Koh's employer of who he was directly acting as an agent of) toward recovery and/or recompensation of a loss. From small claims on up this is the case, without regard to trial in criminal court.

    - Ronald Goldman
    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 10:21 AM.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post


    In civil court a person or entity (Saloman's estate) has the right to make claim against another person/s (Mr. Koh) or entity (Mr. Koh's employer of who he was directly acting as an agent of) toward recovery and/or recompensation of a loss. From small claims on up this is the case, without regard to trial in criminal court.
    He absolutely has the right to make claim.....

    but that doesn't mean that he'll necessarily prevail. It'll be interesting to watch though.

    Regardless, you're absolutely right when you say that there are often unintended consequences to actions and we have to always keep that in mind.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed David...And I hope a Floridian thinks/remembers to bump this thread as the case goes on.
    It'll be interesting to see how this one in specific considering the conditions will play out. I'm going to bet a buck the Saloman estate will not only win but walk away with a huge payout, assuming the general liability insurance underwriter fro Three Amigos does not settle with them first. Assuming of course that the business and it's owners were smart and forward thinking enough to secure such insurance, which is normal for most business of any regard.
    As to Koh unless he has same manner of protection which speaking to averages is much less likely then he's in deep potential poo from the view of liability, as opposed to criminality.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    Janq, I appreciate your input here. I have a question for you and others, however, on this concept.

    If I am about to be assaulted by a BG with a handgun on a city street, and I pull my Kahr in defense promting the BG to fire, missing me, and killing a bystander across the street, are you saying I can be held liable for his death as I caused the action by drawing my defensive weapon?

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    No TC in that case you would not be liable for anything.

    That scenario is wholly different from chasing after a person to recover property to which as a result some other third party sustains a loss, which was the case here.

    Don't take my word for it though.
    Seek out an attorney or judge that you might know (throw a rock in any direction and you're bound to hit one) and ask them to explain the concept of proximate cause and how it relates to civil liability.
    I'm surprised a real attorney has not yet chimed in here yet. There has got to be at least one on this board and who is online at this moment. Those guys are everywhere. :)

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Koh is NOT a LEO.

    End of story.

    -JT

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Why did a grocery store have $42,000+ cash on-hand?
    The places that you always think of with robberys, banks, liquor stores and 7-11's are probably the worst ones to rob. I remember one robber years ago that even robbed a savings and loan. If you are going to rob something go after a grocery store or place where utility bills are paid. Unless you can get into the vault of a bank it used to be that it wouldn't come close to a grocery store. With everyone using plastic it isn't quite as much now but they still do a heck of a lot of cash business. Check out the places where people pay utility bills. $200,000 cash for many of them would be a good half-day.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    IT is not clear that Koh was trying to recover property because only a deranged person would think the robbers would hand over the 42 Gs without a problem. Civilly or criminally, we are talking about responsibility.
    If Koh was following the robbers, he did not violate the law nor do anything irresponsible or negligent. We can follow criminals.
    If the robbers did not fire the gun at the actual robbery site, what would make Koh think they might during the time they were followed?
    If police pursue someone, and a bystander gets killed, the police were still doing something legal.
    If a citizen is following criminals, he or she is doing something legal.
    Koh does not have to be an officer to follow a criminal. It is never ever ever illegal to follow a criminal. Pursuing one might be different. But following? Never illegal or negligent. Mere following. Think about it. Why would it ever be improper to follow a criminal to relay their location to police?
    Legal conduct, which ends up being instrumental somehow in an innocent person getting hurt, does not mean that the person who did the illegal conduct is liable or guilty. Just as if they lived in another state, this never would have happened. If they had never been born, it would not have happened.
    Legal conduct, bad guys do something bad, legal guy takes blame?
    If you are legally where you are at the time something happens, that makes all the difference in the world.
    Here is the question: What were you doing? Was it legal? Were you doing something you were not supposed to be doing? Were you in a place you were not supposed to be?
    If Koh is just following, he has no duty to say to himself, these guys did not shoot at the robbery scene itself, so I have to stop following now because they might shoot someone.
    Could Koh reasonably have foreseen that these guys would shoot the victim? I doubt it.
    We are not responsible for every single action we take, every moment we breathe in and out. We are responsible for those actions which CAUSE harm to others. If Koh shot the bystander when there were no robbers in sight, that is different. But his legal following of Ds was changed by the intervention of one thing. A savage firing a gun.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    West Boynton store worker describes chase of robbery suspects

    dcb and others,

    You should run a search against this story to see the reports and statements by the chaser himself; Sian Kiat Kuh. This was not a slow speed OJ style attempt to 'follow', it was as stated in the OPs news item and by prior news reports a high speed chase initiated by the store robbery victim and employee Kuh...

    South Florida Sun-Sentinel

    West Boynton store worker describes chase of robbery suspects

    Dec 2, 2007

    With one hand on the steering wheel and another on his cell phone, Sian Kiat Kuh barreled down Florida's Turnpike at top speed chasing the men who robbed the Three Amigos store Friday. The suspects' Dodge Magnum got off on the West Atlantic Avenue exit, ripped through the toll plaza and made a drastic U-turn. 'They knew I was following them,' Kuh, the store's assistant manager, said. 'All of the sudden I was facing them and saw a window open and then I heard bam, bam, bam.'

    Still on the phone with a 911 dispatcher, Kuh started screaming, 'They're shooting at me.' A single bullet went through his Mercedes. Another struck a man who was driving a van nearby. Samuel Salomon, 70, of suburban Delray Beach, died shortly after at Delray Medical Center.
    His family declined to comment Saturday. 'I didn't know someone was shot until the cops told me,' Kuh said. 'I feel really bad.' Minutes earlier, four men had rushed into the Three Amigos check-cashing store for a 'takeover' style robbery where they forced at least seven people, including Kuh, onto the ground using what witnesses described was a handgun and an Uzi. 'Give me the money or I'm going to kill you,' screamed a robber who jumped on top of the counter. 'This is a stickup. Get on the floor.' Sitting lotus style on the ground with his hands up, Kuh felt the cold barrel of a gun on his head. 'I cooperated,' Kuh said. The robbers stuffed several bags with money from two registers and demanded more from employees and customers huddled on the floor, the Palm Beach County Violent Crimes Task Force said. Shortly after 1 p.m. the men sped off on the Dodge Magnum with $42,000, said Kuh, who decided to follow them. 'I didn't think about my money,' he said. 'I just wanted them to get arrested.' For Kuh, the chase ended when he lost the robbers getting off the turnpike on Glades Road. Police picked up the chase a block away in the Piccadilly Square west of Boca Raton, where they arrested three men. Roger Rodriguez, 29, Victor Diaz, 18, and Luis Alfonso Reyes-Castillo, 22 - all from the Miami area - were charged with murder, armed robbery, false imprisonment, shooting into an occupied vehicle, aggravated battery and aggravated assault. Rodriguez was arrested in 2004 in Palm Beach County on felony larceny and burglary charges, state records show. Police are still looking for two men known as 'George' and 'Choco,' the two robbers who got away. Investigators are looking into the possibility that the robbery is linked to a string of robberies throughout South Florida. Task Force commander Lt. Michael Wallace said they are reaching out to other law enforcement agencies for leads. 'This is not the first time they have done this,' Wallace said. 'We have to look at these guys and at other robberies similar in nature.' Kuh found out a store clerk had seen Rodriguez in the store before.

    The article can be found reprinted via Topix at; West Boynton store worker describes chase of robbery suspects - Topix
    Another report toward the event states...

    Fourth suspect arrested in Three Amigos robbery, shooting death

    By Jerome Burdi | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
    2:40 PM EST, December 13, 2007

    ...Samuel Salomon, 70, was killed on Atlantic Avenue near Florida's Turnpike when the suspects fired at a Three Amigos assistant manager who followed them.

    The bullet that killed Salomon was shot at Sian Kiat Kuh who chased the suspects in his Mercedes for miles.

    The whole of the article can be found at; Fourth suspect arrested in Three Amigos robbery, shooting death -- -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
    And a third reports adds even more information...

    Three caught, one sought in west Boca after robbery, chase and shooting

    by John Johnston
    Managing Editor


    “It’s now a murder case,” said Palm Beach County Sheriff’s spokesman Paul Miller, following the death of Delray Beach resident Samuel Salomon, 70.

    Salomon was shot, Miller said, while he and his wife were traveling west bound on Atlantic Avenue, and robbers who were fleeing an earlier robbery in Boynton Beach, were shooting at pursuers.

    The four robbers were fleeing the scene of a robbery at the Three Amigos grocery store in Boynton Beach. Earlier in the day, the four men burst into the store at 9860 W. Atlantic Boulevard -- one of them carrying what some said looked like a machine gun. Seven persons were in store, and ordered to the ground, said Miller.

    After the robbery, Miller said the robbers got on the Turnpike, headed south, exited at Glades Road, and fled into a shopping center west of Boca Rio Road.

    The suspects abandoned the vehicle near the International Jewelry Exchange located at the 8000 block of Glades Road - but not before firing shots at a pursuing vehicle, and in the process killing Salamon.


    Police caught three of the men at the Glades road Jewelry Exchange location, said Miller.

    At 5 p.m., police were still searching for a fourth man, described as approximately 6-foot-tall and wearing a white T-shirt and blue jeans.

    During the search, police closed the turnpike’s southbound Atlantic Avenue. Olympic Heights High School was put on a precautionary lockdown.

    The group left the Boynton Beach store with an undisclosed amount of cash, ending with the arrest on Glades road, and a search for the fourth man.

    The story can be found at; Boca Raton News - Boca Raton, FL | Three Caught After Bank Robbery | Listen to the News
    This was not a slow speed cat and mouse follow the guys and be a good witness type act of follow and be low profile.
    The victim, Sian Kiat Kuh, was literally chasing the robbers and he did know they were armed not that it is relevant. Even if the robber had not fired a shot but instead wound up wrecking their car into Saloman and injuring or killing him Kiat would still be in the same pot of hot water under the exact same principle of proximate cause.
    As well once more this _is not_ a criminal case. It is a law suit brought by the estate in _civil court_. There is no establishment of illegality or unlawfullness there. It is about liability and responsibility toward involvement of a loss. The ways of civil court and law are not the same as criminal. A person can be deemed not guilty of a crime by a prosecutor or deemed same by a jury or judge in criminal court, but then next be sued in civil court and found to be liable by responsibility for loss in that same case. A perfect example of this is OJ Simpson and the criminal trial brought by the state and the subsequent civil court lawsuit brought by the family of Ronald Goldman.
    As well it is also possible and does happen that persons are convicted of criminal a given crime but later in civil court found to be not liable toward responsibility of actions that had occurred as associated to or resultant of the defendant.

    In this case Kiat by his own statements to the media (stupid!) are damning. He just so happened to not be charged by the prosecutor with speeding or reckless driving or reckless endangerment, all of which would have been applicable even as he was a victim and he had by intent meant well. Of course he wasn't in actuality going to recover his monies in actuality as he was not anywhere near enabled to do so. But he was determined to 'not let them get away' and thus he did not just follow but he gave "chase".
    That decision to give chase resulted in the robbers fleeing at not only high speeds on public roads which in itself is quite dangerous but they felt pressed enough to fire on Kiat who was _chasing_ them toward his property loss and as a result a third party was killed...over $42,000.

    It'll be interesting to see what comes of this suit.
    I'm betting it'll cost Kiat and Three Brothers a lot more than $42K or the deductible against a payout toward coverage of as much.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I can see a victim being so p....d that he hops in and takes off after them. But he must have had somewhat of a cool head because he did dial 911.
    Do you think it makes any difference that the robbers did not use the gun at the robbery itself and so Kiat did not think they would later on?
    So even if he was chasing, irrationally but understandably, is the shooter more responsible here than Kiat? I mean, could Kiat reasonably foresee that his pursuit would result in a shot being fired, where Kiat was just at the robbery scene and no shot was fired then, when you would expect one to have been?
    I see what you are saying and you are right insofar as if Kiat was not after them, they never would have fired, but still, would you blame him as much as you would blame the shooter? Not criminally, I understand, all civil law.
    When people say that the robbers were basically doing what they had to do, ie shooting at Kiat, that stretches it a lot, in my view, and it is just an e pluribus unum view.
    One problem I have is that this means that essentially the robbers can say "Kiat made me do it!" A little unreal.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Janq, I agree with 90% of your posts, but not this one!
    They are to blame for firing the shots no matter how you look at it.
    Give him a speeding ticket if he was breaking the speed limit, but to say it was his fault these felons fired is wrong.
    I hope he gets away clean and the thugs are put away forever..JMO
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    It is still not clear that Kiat was going to try to recover property, for the reasons we stated earlier, that anyone knows that robbers would not hand over 42k to an unarmed guy just because he wants it back.
    But he was so p....d at being robbed in the first place that he just did not want them to get away, whatever that means, whatever he thinks he would have done had he encountered them closeup. He probably would have rammed his car against theirs at high speeds etc
    So I am not convinced that his pursuit was aimed mainly at recovering money. I think much more was operating here. Vengeance of whatever kind he could exact. Again, understandable.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    dcb,

    I highlighted in the first article Kuh's own stated to the press statement of reasoning;

    "I just wanted them to get arrested."

    As I said it's clear he was not in any real way going to recover his cash alone on his own, he was not enabled to do so. What he could so was chase them and attempt to follow whilst on the phone reporting as much to 911, which is also reported in the first article I cited.

    Although what he thought he was going to do from there or even whether his motivation was to recover his money or not etc. is immaterial as relative to the result of what did happen.
    The plaintiff is going to state because of Kuh's act to chase and effectively throw fuel on a fire by giving chase rather than dialing 911 and staying put at his store his decision and actions resulted directly in the death of an otherwise uninvolved third party, Mr. Saloman. And that would be true.

    Dialing 911 doesn't require a cool head. Anybody in any state of mind and emotion can and do do that.
    As to foresight it's also immaterial that Kuh might have or not forseen that the robbers might would fire on him. Again as I said before they easily could have simply wrecked their car into Saloman. Or they could have run someone over in the process of trying to escape. Could he have forseen those either? Does it matter? Does anything in regard to liability by association to the overall act and death of the third party change? Nope.
    I haven't seen anyone in this thread say the robbers were doing what they do (?). But to your statement that the robbers can say "Kiat made me do it!", that is irrelelvant and would be applicable to their criminal trial or their own non-existant civil trial. They are not the defendants, it's Sian Kiat Kuh and the question is if he had not made the decision to give chase to the robbers would Mr. Saloman and his estate have sufferedd the losses they have via the robbers fleeing from Mr. Kuh?
    The answer to that as well is nope.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
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    Jang... I try to argue your exact cited point of law to the point of nausea in lots of posts here regarding similar scenarios or situations.

    Suffice it to say, lots of people seem to either have an unlimited supply of money and/or assets to cover what ultimately may prove to be a poor decision or... just choose to roll the dice and hope for the best.

    It is always a role of the dice once at trial... anything can happen! Juries have been known to disregard the evidence of the case and ultimately vote contrary to the obvious after acquiring the sympathies of one party or the other.

    That, however is a big difference as to being totally blind or unaware as to what the law really is. I think your citation of "proximate cause" is right on point and a good example.

    All I can say is the country's prisons and poor houses are full of people who thought they were in the clear when they chose their actions or response, only to have their eyes opened with an air of bewilderment when reality is suddenly thrust upon them.

    Like you, I choose to try and avoid the obvious pitfalls and try to educate myself as much as possible, in the rules of lethal force and liability issues.

    I can say that after close to 3 decades and thousands upon thousands of dollars spent on training, education and learning as much about lethal force law and liability without actually going to law school, I can honestly say that the way I respond to situations today is 180 degrees different than I would have responded say 15 or 20 years ago.

    There's an old saying... "You don't know what you don't know."

    And back then, I certainly was not aware that a lot of my planned actions to a given scenario would have... or could have gotten me in trouble, either criminally or with civil liability.

    I was not aware of what I did not know. And that can be a sad state of affairs when one day, something you did comes back to bite you in the butt and cost you everything you ever had and ever hope to have in the future.
    -Bark'n
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