Drew & Fired - Please Help?

This is a discussion on Drew & Fired - Please Help? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since we bring up the issue of the motel, perhaps THEY owe the hypothetical guest a duty to provide a safe environment as FAR AS ...

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Thread: Drew & Fired - Please Help?

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Since we bring up the issue of the motel, perhaps THEY owe the hypothetical guest a duty to provide a safe environment as FAR AS IT IS IN THEIR CONTROL. I judge from the scenario that it has seedy clientele and that in my opinion, is a very big factor in how police reacted when they saw this guy moving to Washington for a new job and he has his wife and kids with him and savages next door. The savages were subdued with a taser, so that says a lot for them in court. But the motel cannot just tolerate a lawless environment with impunity either, so the lawsuit might work both ways. The motel would really be calling the kettle black by sueing the shooter. What damages did THEY sustain?????? Nothing. But the environment that they tolerate? Now that would be a question for a judge.
    So things in court are not always what they seem. Many people who have taken others to court have found themselves on the wrong side of the law once inside the building. This motel might be in that position in the hypothetical scenario. They certainly play some role here if they allow and even encourage behavior like that on a regular basis. I think it might be on a regular basis judging by the activity all night before the incident in question. No security provided? No management up there telling the people next door to pipe down? Hmmm. Their day in court might be one they will regret very deeply.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #47
    Member Array kpaul's Avatar
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    Get a lawyer—The prosecutor is the one who will make the charges in the end—This can take time and you are now in the legal system hence you NEED a lawyer--

    In MN you opening the door would more than likely make you a willful participant which is a no-no in this state--

    Calling 911 and leaving the line open could be a good thing-- Call is recorded- me saying don't come in I am afraid for the safety of my family, I will defend myself if you come into room etc. and being taped would be good in your defense if someone does break in—

    It’s always better to be judged by twelve than buried by six is a great saying – Now days I would add it’s also nice to have a home to come home to!
    K.Paul
    Semper Fi

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    He is not really in the system yet as he is not charged with anything and in the scenario I really doubt that he will be.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    In most states (if not all) your hotel room is your temporary domicile. Some thoughts on this scenario in no particular order:

    1) Cracking the door should never have happened. You have a peephole to see out, they don't need to see in. Also makes for somewhat easier entry.

    2) Forced entry into a hotel room should be treated as a home invasion. No warning shots, whether PD is enroute or not is immaterial. Shots fired into COM as long as the threat exists.

    3) By allowing the hotel manager to insert herself into the situation you allowed additional non-combatants into the zone, risking their lives as well as your wife and kids. BG's should have been down and/or dead by the time manager arrived.

    4) 911 should have been called as soon as it was apparent something dangerous was going on next door, and definitely when the more forceful room entry was attemted.

    5) Wife and kids should not have been exposed, should have been behind/under the bed furthese from the door. What if BG's had fired through the door/wall into your room?

    Questions/comments are not directed at you, of course, since this is a hypothetical situation - and a good one, at that!

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    bg70, sorry I must have read your post after editing to make it a scenario, and I responded before reading the other posts. I'm glad that you and family are safe and I hope all turns out well for you.

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    3) By allowing the hotel manager to insert herself into the situation you allowed additional non-combatants into the zone, risking their lives as well as your wife and kids. BG's should have been down and/or dead by the time manager arrived.

    IE, lets say the BGs DID have guns, and they had shot the manager, some lawyer would try and pin that on you, too..... sad but true.

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    The two bad guys did have guns, both of them.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  9. #53
    Member Array Biloxi Bersa's Avatar
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    Did some of you guys not read this through and realize it was make-believe?

  10. #54
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    I would have called the hotel manager with the first complaint of noise and disturbance. I would wait about 15 or 20 minutes, and if things did not settle down I would call 911 and ask for officers to come check out the situation.

    Now say I didn't call 911 and did go through with calling the manager again and again - I would have never opened the door. When you open a door, you open yourself to being knocked over pretty easy...Not only that, but its not very easy to have your weapon up and ready to fire while toying around with a chain lock and dead bolt. Opening the door for anyone was a huge mistake. I would let them kick it down. I would be on the other side of the room with my weapon aimed at the door. The wife and kid would be in the bathroom staying low. If the door did get kicked down, they would already be in my sights and chances are they would turn around and run as soon as they saw a gun.

    The whole part about they couple saying that they were armed and that I was a dead man, that they were going to kill me right there...I wouldn't let it escilate to that. As soon as they started digging into their pockets after saying they were going to shoot me...I would open fire. After hearing "I have a gun and I'm going to shoot you" and seeing the person dig in a pocket, any reasonable person would fear that the person was pulling out a weapon.

    Warning shots are never a good idea. Although it may seem like its the better thing to do, you're at least opening yourself up to discharging a firearm inside city limits. Not only that, but you run the risk of one of your rounds hitting an innocent bystander. When you fire a warning shot, your eyes probably don't leave the BG, so you can't see where your rounds are going. Yes, a warning shot may scare someone away...but you're just asking for legal trouble by doing so.

    There are so many wrong doings in the scenario. I hope this didn't happen to you, if so...you're going to need to get a lawyer. Just cause the police took you out of cuffs and let you go home after questioning, doesn't mean you're in the clear. As far as them taking the weapon, they run ballistics on any weapon involved in a crime (and yes, this would be considered a crime). This way, they will be able to match the gun to any homicides that it may have been involved in before or see if its stolen. By taking the weapon, they may get a lead in another case. Usually, you will get your weapon back after the trial is over with. It can be a vital piece of evidence in any trial.

    Thats my .02.
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    Smith & Wesson M&P9c

  11. #55
    Member Array LabTech's Avatar
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    this is real simple in texas.

    1. should have called 911 early on in the night
    2. never ever open the door.
    3. when they kicked the door in you should have put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head to every coming through the door.

  12. #56
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    In this scenario, what if the PD calls you up and returns your weapon to you, only two days after the incident (provided one day was actually a weekend day? Your communications with the PD have been very good. Are some of you still trying to tell me I would be the bad guy if this were the real deal ?????????????????

  13. #57
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Why have the damn gun and CCW if you're consistently backing down and second guessing what you would do? Without the BG physically showing a weapon, would you still take the life of another individual? Sure, the verbal threats were made... but let's all go back to the self-defense training. If a weapon is drawn and they back up, then start mouthing off at you that they're going to kill you, does "mouthing off" warrant pulling that trigger and ending their lfie? Yeah, we all agree if this were real, the warning shots would not be a good idea. But - which is better, having avoided this as it turns out, or making it into a life-changing incident?

    Bottom line, some of you are so damn paranoid about what MIGHT happen, I question if the only reason you have the gun is some feeling of power it gives you. It's not a toy! It's not used to persuade. One hopes it does, but the damn thing has a trigger on it - it's designed to shoot !!!

    Quite a unique diversity of responses in this scenario. PD might have a totally different opinion on how this went down. What if the LEOs responding to this incident are the very same ones who return your gun to you and apologize for this having to happen in their town, then tell you it's a very clear-cut case of unlawful entry into the hotel room! I guess in this scenario, some of you would still feel like turning yourselves in because you what... ??? fired two warning shots? opened the door??? brandished the weapon ???

    What IF it turns out that the BGs indeed DID have 9mm concealed on them? Is one still at fault over having drawn their weapon and fired two warning shots in hopes they would wake up from their obvious "under the influence of something" staggering and lethargic talk?

    Oh yes....... and WHAT IF IT TURNS OUT... ONE OF THE BGs HAPPENS TO BE APPREHENDED AND IN FACT, IS WANTED FOR MURDER ????????????????

    Does the "sorry, irresponsible" weapon holder now get reward money for this? :-)

  14. #58
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    I'm still scratching my head wondering if this really happened to you or if this is just a hypothetical situation...

    So, if this really happened to you already... Shut up and get a good lawyer and follow their advice.

    As for me... I do travel a lot. I don't stay in flea trap motels... If I can't afford at least a name brand hotel or decent name brand motel then I can't afford to travel.

    If I'm traveling on the State's dime for business, they always put me up in the higher end hotels.

    Now, when on business, while it might in a decent hotel... It may not always be in the best of neighborhoods. So I may have some exposure when going and coming from business to the hotel.

    So that right there, probably would not have allowed the original scenario to play out as described in the original post. I would have changed the dynamics of it long before it got to that point.

    But as for what I would do, if I was actually forced to play out that scenario as described in the original post...


    If that crazy scenario started to play out, no repeated calls to the front desk would be necessary!

    If the hotel management did not take care of the incident after I complained, I would have been calling 911 myself.

    Depending on the circumstances, I may just call 911 before I even call the front desk. Especially if I was staying in some dive and the commotion in the room next door was as you describe. (I don't buy the fact stated in the scenario that the phone lines are down to call 911, but you can still make calls to the front desk? That just isn't plausible on its surface. Also extremely unlikely that both land lines and cell service would be down at the same time)

    Now, understand that your hotel room is considered your legal domicile and any forced breach of the door can considered the same as a home invasion.

    With all that was going on in the next room, I am at least forewarned that an out of control situation is going on and I would not open my hotel room door to anyone, period! (except for LEO's after I have identified them through the peep hole)

    Anyone other than LEO's at my door, will have to kick the door in to gain entry, thus leaving obvious evidence of having broken and entered my sanctuary!

    When I travel, I keep my light mounted Glock-23 at the ready along with a can of FOX Labs OC spray, a combat folding knife and my cell phone tucked inside my shoes on the floor next to the bed when I sleep. My XD9sc is in the night stand drawer next to the bed. I also have a cheap $10 door alarm that looks like a wedge shaped door stop I place on the room door when I'm inside. As soon as the door is moved it produces a 110 decibel alarm to alert me and startle the intruder.

    (During this crazy scenario... if something like that were really happening, I would have been fully dressed with gun in holster until the situation was resolved either by management or the police, and not in bed trying to sleep. And neither would the rest of my family.)

    So, if drunken/high crazies break down my door, I'm responding just as I would have if I were at home. Shoot if appropriate! They may be impaired because of drugs and or alcohol, but they are in control of their own destiny. If they fail to see the error of their ways staring down the barrel of a loaded .40 cal Glock it's their bad... not mine!

    After they break in, if I find myself in a stand-off because some sixth sense told me not to fire immediately, they can rant and rave all they want, but I'm not engaging in conversation or a shouting match with them while my door alarm blares in the background except to scream Get Out of My Room or I will Shoot!. If they advance on me or make a furtive move, I will shoot, and shoot repeatedly until the threat ceases.

    I always have at least two high capacity guns with me when I travel and upwards of 80 plus rounds in spare magazines so I'm pretty sure the entire crowd at some point will cease to continue their felonious assault on my castle.

    This is very important to understand... There should never be any warning shots fired!

    Warning shots, by definition is "assault with a deadly weapon."

    If you are not justified in immediately employing lethal force to defend yourself in the situation, there is no justification in firing a deadly weapon in the situation, as a warning or otherwise. Never fire warning shots!

    When LEO's arrive, it should be fairly obvious as to what transpired. At least to who the good guys are and who the nut jobs were.

    I would reserve statements other than there was outrageous activity going on in the room next door which raised my level of concern and the crazy people breaking down my door forcing me to defend either myself (or me and my family, if they are with me) until after I have spoken with my attorney!

    I would under no circumstances give any statements trying to describe exactly what happened, when it happened, who was standing where, what time I called the front desk or anything like that until I had time to regain my composure and speak with legal council.

    Also, like Rob72 stated... I never unpack enough to where I can't grab my stuff and bug out of a place in less than 10 minutes notice.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #59
    Member Array firestarplus's Avatar
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    I think more people should preface what they say with a more humble approach like "I hope I would" or "I'd like think I would" do this or that. To state things so matter of factly comes off a bit harsh or arrogant. What you know is the right thing to do doesnt always translate under immense life or death pressure. Thats why these scenarios (real or otherwise) can make for great learning and discussion if it doesnt turn into a belittling session. I know I have learned alot from several of these scenarios that have been posted on this forum and I just HOPE that when the pressure is on I will react correctly.

  16. #60
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    What went right in your "scenario" is that you had a gun. You and or your family may have been beaten, robbed, raped and killed had you not had a gun.

    Mistakes:

    When the front desk failed to quiet the room next door a request for a new room elsewhere in the hotel should have been made.

    If the request for a new room at the local hotel failed, a call to the HQ should have been made.

    When the first two people threatened to break in the door 911 should have been called. A loud announcement through the door letting them know 911 was called should have been made and the line left open.

    Never, ever open your door to someone you do not know, or is not in uniform with good reason for you to open the door.

    Once the door was breached it was time for action.

    Once your life was threatened it was time for action.

    Once the hotel staffer was assaulted it was time for action.

    In my state firing warning shots is illegal. It also removes your affirmative defense for using deadly force. Same for shooting to wound. Does that mean you would be charged, not necessarily. Depends on where you were standing when it happened. In my county, likely not. In a county to my east, probably.

    I have the benefit of having lived significant portions of my adult years in hotels. So with my 250+ nights per year in a chain, I have some pull. When I say I want a new room, they comply immediately. They only ask why so that they can fix the current room. If they have nothing available they put me in another hotel. A small benefit to all those nights in their chain. It hasn't happened yet, but if the local hotel didn't want to accommodate me I would call their HQ and I would likely get service.

    Glad to hear it all worked out for you in the end. Yes I did see the post before the OP edited it to be a scenario. That was a very confusing thing to do, changing from an event to a scenario, especially after more than a few hours and responses were made. It has made for a very confusing thread.

    The staff can help. Just click on the triangle with the ! in it in the lower left margin under your username, that reports the post. Type a message in the window as to what you want done. That puts a post in the staff area and whoever is on at the time will take care of it.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

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