Fondled date? - Page 10

Fondled date?

This is a discussion on Fondled date? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by centermass Where you awake when you wrote that? It's kinda funny that someone with that username would post that comment. Do you ...

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Thread: Fondled date?

  1. #136
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centermass View Post
    Where you awake when you wrote that? It's kinda funny that someone with that username would post that comment. Do you really believe that someone that does that isn't trying to provoke a reaction. So it's ok for people to run around grabbing womens butts and breasts, as long as they don't intend to offend or provoke them? You can hide behind the legal wording all you want. It's wrong and you know it.
    Let me make myself clear. I don't condone the act and I think the pervert 'should' be flattened. It is wrog and I think everyone ere agrees on that point. However, in Arizona it is not a crime. Physical retaliation is a crime. No, it is not OK to run around grabbing women but if the above quoted statues are not violated then there is no crime committed. In most cases, even if a crime is committed you still can't assault someone. Consider the police officers caught on tape kicking the obviously guilty criminal. He might have received what he deserved but that behavior is not condoned or tolerated in our society.

    I am not hiding behind legal wording. That is the way it is. If that type of behavior could be codified then I would support that legislation. But a pinch on the butt is no different than a pat on the back. And how many pro football players are guilty of what you want to make a crime?


  2. #137
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    OK, you win. There's no law against it so the creep is free to grope to his heart's content. As often, as much, and with as many as he wants. You can verbally fuss about his improper behavior with your gal but don't you dare lay a finger on him as long as he's only groping and doesn't threaten physical harm to anyone. Your gal can't clobber him either. He's not required to comply with requests to stop the fondling. Her only recourse is to attempt to get away from him. What if he tags along?

    Simply one of life's inconveniences and no different than someone patting you on the back. ... But it is not a crime. And it certainly doesn't justify retaliation.

    As you say.
    Calm, subtle, just a little sarcasm, I like it
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  3. #138
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    Sooo,Mr selfdefence. If it happened to you you wouldn't defend yourself?

    And you must not have read my earlier posts. Again, I said I would run my mouth first, not hit them. I would let them make the choice to either walk away or get physical. Once they swing, I can defend myself.
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  4. #139
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    Since I live in Texas I can't say but I'm thinking that Arizona law could be delved a bit more to find that it does address this issue.

  5. #140
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    OK, you win. There's no law against it so the creep is free to grope to his heart's content. As often, as much, and with as many as he wants. You can verbally fuss about his improper behavior with your gal but don't you dare lay a finger on him as long as he's only groping and doesn't threaten physical harm to anyone.
    Pretty much. If there is no law against the behavior then what do suggest as a recourse? Committing assault and hoping the jury will find you not guilty by means of jury nullification?

    Your gal can't clobber him either. He's not required to comply with requests to stop the fondling. Her only recourse is to attempt to get away from him. What if he tags along?
    That is an entirely different subject and certainly is addressed by the statutes I quoted. I was addressing, and I thought this thread was about, a person 'copping a feel' in a crowded mall or movie theater. Grab a feel and move on...

    You are changing the subject to a continued assault WITH INTENT to injure or provoke.

  6. #141
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centermass View Post
    Sooo,Mr selfdefence. If it happened to you you wouldn't defend yourself?

    And you must not have read my earlier posts. Again, I said I would run my mouth first, not hit them. I would let them make the choice to either walk away or get physical. Once they swing, I can defend myself.
    My posts are not directed to you in particular. We all must make our choices. I choose to follow the law despite my feelings.

    I don't think an attack on the pervert is legal or appropriate. And it certainly doesn't rise to any level where I would consider the need to defend myself.

    Frankly, in the situation I envisioned from the original poster's scenario, the guy would be gone before you even knew it happened. Unless you chase him down, you wouldn't have an opportunity to say anything no less retaliate from his new hypothetical attack.

    Are you saying you would chase him down in the hopes of provoking him to start a physical attack?

  7. #142
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Pretty much. If there is no law against the behavior then what do suggest as a recourse? Committing assault and hoping the jury will find you not guilty by means of jury nullification?

    Your gal can't clobber him either. He's not required to comply with requests to stop the fondling. Her only recourse is to attempt to get away from him. What if he tags along?

    That is an entirely different subject and certainly is addressed by the statutes I quoted. I was addressing, and I thought this thread was about, a person 'copping a feel' in a crowded mall or movie theater. Grab a feel and move on...

    You are changing the subject to a continued assault WITH INTENT to injure or provoke.
    Why do all ways assume what he is thinking He was testing you for the next time by, now he knows you are a easy target as he has already shown interest in your wife.
    If my wife tells me she just been assaulted by someone, There will be a police response, I will call if I get a chance( I'm going to be busy for a minute). Then me and my local LEO,DA will work it out.
    If he books me I will find a lawyer and test the Citizens arrest theory!
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  8. #143
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    So this statute says that once is ok but twice crosses some line? It can't be a continued assault if it isn't initially an assault. Yes, we are on the same subject.

    This is twisted. Make the gal a minor and it's really sicko.

    So the first feel is "on the house"?

  9. #144
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Pretty much. If there is no law against the behavior then what do suggest as a recourse? Committing assault and hoping the jury will find you not guilty by means of jury nullification?

    [UOTE]Your gal can't clobber him either. He's not required to comply with requests to stop the fondling. Her only recourse is to attempt to get away from him. What if he tags along?
    That is an entirely different subject and certainly is addressed by the statutes I quoted. I was addressing, and I thought this thread was about, a person 'copping a feel' in a crowded mall or movie theater. Grab a feel and move on...

    You are changing the subject to a continued assault WITH INTENT to injure or provoke.[/QUOTE]

    No, not really. If what you have said is true. He may just really like the feel of it. What would make you think he was intending to injure or provoke anything. Dude, it doesn't have to happen more than once to be considered assault. It's great info by the way. I guess the next time I feel like hitting someone I can as long as I don't intend to injure or provoke them. And if I only hit them once?
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  10. #145
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centermass View Post
    No, not really. If what you have said is true. He may just really like the feel of it. What would make you think he was intending to injure or provoke anything. Dude, it doesn't have to happen more than once to be considered assault. It's great info by the way. I guess the next time I feel like hitting someone I can as long as I don't intend to injure or provoke them. And if I only hit them once?
    It is not the number of times. There are statutes concerning stalking and harrassment. As much as we do not like a quick feel, it is simply not illegal.

    If you can somehow articulate to a jury that an assault of the pervert was justified then I wish you good luck. I suppose you will be the first to call 911 to confirm to police you were the victim?

  11. #146
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Let someone grab Lima! Just once!
    Go ahead!
    I have respected every one of her posts, let her get on here and tell you about "just leave"!
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  12. #147
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    I really don't think I would have a problem with a jury after I told them what he did. If the cops even arrested me or said I was in the wrong. From what I've seen from the cops around here and the ones I personnally know, there wouldn't be a problem. But of course, like I already stated, he would probably be the one who took the first swing.
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  13. #148
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    13-1401. Definitions
    In this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:

    2. "Sexual contact" means any direct or indirect touching, fondling or manipulating of any part of the genitals, anus or female breast by any part of the body or by any object or causing a person to engage in such contact.

    5. "Without consent" includes any of the following:
    (a) The victim is coerced by the immediate use or threatened use of force against a person or property.
    (b) The victim is incapable of consent by reason of mental disorder, mental defect, drugs, alcohol, sleep or any other similar impairment of cognition and such condition is known or should have reasonably been known to the defendant. For purposes of this subdivision, "mental defect" means the victim is unable to comprehend the distinctively sexual nature of the conduct or is incapable of understanding or exercising the right to refuse to engage in the conduct with another.
    (c) The victim is intentionally deceived as to the nature of the act.
    (d) The victim is intentionally deceived to erroneously believe that the person is the victim's spouse.


    13-1404. Sexual abuse; classifications
    A. A person commits sexual abuse by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual contact with any person fifteen or more years of age without consent of that person or with any person who is under fifteen years of age if the sexual contact involves only the female breast.

    13-1203. Assault; classification
    A. A person commits assault by:
    1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causing any physical injury to another person; or
    2. Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury; or
    3. Knowingly touching another person with the intent to injure, insult or provoke such person.


    "As much as we do not like a quick feel, it is simply not illegal."

    Oooo... but a slow feel is?



    Actually "without consent" covers the misdeed perfectly. Doesn't matter if it's once or more times, quickly or slowly. Arizona law isn't so lax after all.

    The woman assaulted suffers under the "mental defect" of being unaware she's about to be blindsided and taken advantage of. She's incapable of understanding or exercising the right to refuse to engage in the conduct with another by the most foul "sneak attack" of the creep. The fact that she is inappropriately touched by stealth precludes her ability to give consent.

    She must give consent in this instance or it is an assault. It's an assault the first time and no matter how brief it is.


    And if I can get my hands on the creep my fist will be most inconvenient.

  14. #149
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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  15. #150
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    bmc, I wouldn't worry about AZ law too much...We're in Texas...it's different here.

    We still live by a different law. Charlie said it best...
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Man
    So don't go pushin' me against my will
    I don't want to have to fight you but I durn sure will
    So if you don't want trouble that you'd better just pass me on by
    As far as I'm concerned there ain't no excuse
    For the raping and the killing and the child abuse
    And I've got a way to put and end to all that mess
    You just take those rascals out in the swamp
    Put them on their knees and tie 'em to a stump
    And let the rattlers and the bugs and the alligators do the rest
    We've got a different brand of justice down here. Most of our jury pool couldn't define 'jury-nullification' or provide case law, or debate the merits vs detriments of it's effects...but we danged sure know how to use it.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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