Home defense hypothetical - Page 2

Home defense hypothetical

This is a discussion on Home defense hypothetical within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dcb188 It would be, if they knew you were cleaning it. Otherwise you have to put yourself in their shoes. They don't ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    It would be, if they knew you were cleaning it. Otherwise you have to put yourself in their shoes. They don't know the caller from Adam. They walk in and here is this guy sitting there in the middle of his living room holding a gun. It is perfectly within the law to do that, after all it is his house.
    What would this look like to you if you were the very first LEO through the door. I would think that the very first thing that crosses their minds could be "man with a gun", not "man cleaning a gun wants to see our expression."
    Well, if they don't know what Hoppe's smells like, I don't know if I want them as visitors...
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess they would hold up at the door and holler out HOPPE's to their partners hurrying behind them. It is not dangerous after all. You should be all set :) You aren't actually going to try this someday I hope? Make sure they all know their Hoppe's cleaner.....and I guess if they can't take a joke at the scene of a shooting......
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Having worked 9-1-1 for fifteen years I am going to get up on my soap box a little bit here.
    As a call taker my job was to get as much relevant information out of you and to the officers as fast as I could. That relevant information includes your attitude towards me on the phone. If I think you are being evasive the officers are going to know about before they show up at your house. Now instead of viewing you as most likely a home owner who was able to protect himself you are now going to be viewed more as a possible suspect. Is this really a burglar dead on the floor or a business partner? If he has a lengthy history including a lot of drug offenses it can raise some eyebrows. Was he looking for a laptop to pawn or a couple of kilos?
    Besides, you tell me there has been a shooting I am going to ask you straight out who the shooter is. How do you think trying to dodge the question will look when the Grand Jury hears the tape? Or a trial jury? You can expect that if the BG is dead or has a good chance of it your hands will be tested for powder residue. They are going to know who fired a weapon. Now we have you refusing to admit it, dodging my questions on tape and testing positive for GSR, bad guy with what ever history..... What kind of picture could an anti self defense prosecutor paint with all of this?
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    That is right on the money mcp1810. Those tapes are available for defense counsel. All she or he needs is to bring a blank one to the DAs office and they have the right to get a copy. Cannot be changed afterwards. I have had several trials that kind of turned on what the 911 tape said, ranging from a witness who said she was so scared, and the tape showed her being kind of flippant, and other trials where the urgency of the whole thing was in question because of the 911 caller's voice on the tape.
    Those tapes are played in a lot of trials. You could hear a pin drop as the caller says things he or she should not have said had they been a real victim.
    Thanks for your response, mcp1810. I was not even thinking of that whole angle when I responded.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Having worked 9-1-1 for fifteen years I am going to get up on my soap box a little bit here.
    As a call taker my job was to get as much relevant information out of you and to the officers as fast as I could. That relevant information includes your attitude towards me on the phone. If I think you are being evasive the officers are going to know about before they show up at your house. Now instead of viewing you as most likely a home owner who was able to protect himself you are now going to be viewed more as a possible suspect. Is this really a burglar dead on the floor or a business partner? If he has a lengthy history including a lot of drug offenses it can raise some eyebrows. Was he looking for a laptop to pawn or a couple of kilos?
    Besides, you tell me there has been a shooting I am going to ask you straight out who the shooter is. How do you think trying to dodge the question will look when the Grand Jury hears the tape? Or a trial jury? You can expect that if the BG is dead or has a good chance of it your hands will be tested for powder residue. They are going to know who fired a weapon. Now we have you refusing to admit it, dodging my questions on tape and testing positive for GSR, bad guy with what ever history..... What kind of picture could an anti self defense prosecutor paint with all of this?
    Valuable perspective. Thanks.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    If you are in the right, nothing to lose by having a conversation with 911. If you have something to hide, that is a reason to not have a conversation.
    And it is not really a conversation that is rambling, just details so they can get a picture of what happened and is it now still happening?
    So what is wrong with just saying that a bad guy came in, had a gun, I shot him, he appears to be dead, I am armed, door will be unlocked?
    If you state the truth of what happened, it cannot come back to haunt you.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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  7. #22
    New Member Array camguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Having worked 9-1-1 for fifteen years I am going to get up on my soap box a little bit here.
    As a call taker my job was to get as much relevant information out of you and to the officers as fast as I could. That relevant information includes your attitude towards me on the phone. If I think you are being evasive the officers are going to know about before they show up at your house. Now instead of viewing you as most likely a home owner who was able to protect himself you are now going to be viewed more as a possible suspect. Is this really a burglar dead on the floor or a business partner? If he has a lengthy history including a lot of drug offenses it can raise some eyebrows. Was he looking for a laptop to pawn or a couple of kilos?
    Besides, you tell me there has been a shooting I am going to ask you straight out who the shooter is. How do you think trying to dodge the question will look when the Grand Jury hears the tape? Or a trial jury? You can expect that if the BG is dead or has a good chance of it your hands will be tested for powder residue. They are going to know who fired a weapon. Now we have you refusing to admit it, dodging my questions on tape and testing positive for GSR, bad guy with what ever history..... What kind of picture could an anti self defense prosecutor paint with all of this?

    Thanks for the expert advice. That pretty much answers my question!

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    If you are in the right, nothing to lose by having a conversation with 911. If you have something to hide, that is a reason to not have a conversation.
    And it is not really a conversation that is rambling, just details so they can get a picture of what happened and is it now still happening?
    So what is wrong with just saying that a bad guy came in, had a gun, I shot him, he appears to be dead, I am armed, door will be unlocked?
    If you state the truth of what happened, it cannot come back to haunt you.
    In the immediate aftermath of a shooting I am not going to remember details. I can't guarantee the accuracy of my statements, and I am not going to have an accidental contradictory statement on a 911 recording show up to bite me in the behind.

    dcb, do you advise your clients to give statements to the police? I don't know of any attorney who advises clients to give statements. A 911 call is exactly that. It's giving a recorded statement at the worst possible time.

    MCP, your post is exactly the reason I would say what I said. After that, I would most likely put the phone down but will leave it on. For one thing, I don't know if the BG has a partner. For another, I am not going to discuss a shooting with a 911 operator right after it happened. Forget about it.

    The operator will get my name, the response needed, the fact that there was a shooting, and a description of me. That's it.

    I'm not going to dodge questions because I am not going to listen to them. We had a thread on here a few weeks ago about never speaking to the police, under any circumstances. While I do not necessarily agree with that, I will NOT have a Q&A session with 911 operator while I am being recorded during the immediate aftermath of a shooting.

    There are a thousand different reasons why I am not going to stay on the line with the operator. The top of the list is that its being recorded, I'm shaken up, I haven't had time to collect my thoughts, and I don't want the distraction in case BG has friends or BG gets up.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  9. #24
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    On the contrary, you WILL remember more details right after the incident than you ever will later.
    A 911 call is not exactly a statement to the police.
    Kerbouchard, we disagree on just about everything on these boards as it is, so what is one more thread? It is cool and raining here, and you might tell me it is bright sunshine and hot. I am used to it. Free country to call 911 and tell them anything you wish.
    How can you have an accidental contradictory statement?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    A difference of opinion is never necessarily fallacious.
    I have handled 22000 criminal cases and I get my share of NGs in jury trials, so I am a novice at this stuff.
    But all that aside, thank you for hoping I don't give this kind of advice to my clients, thereby implying that I do give bad advice to them.
    You are a good guy but there is no winning with you once you think your opinion is the only one :) Got to admit that, come on admit it now :)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Here is the link to that other thread. It was a good video and if you didn't watch it you should make the time. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ge-advice.html

    It talks about accidental contradictory statments and all of that. The video also further cemented my opinion of giving as little information as possible directly after a traumatic event.

    As said earlier, a 911 call will be used in a trial; if there is one. And it makes great evidence. What more could a DA wish for than a recording of the 'shooters' words directly after the event?
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    OK, but you and I will have to make some formal written agreement to disagree :) That is the road to peaceful co-existence. Like they did in the Cold War.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  13. #28
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    Ask Joe Horn how he would handle his 911 call differently knowing what he knows now.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Joe Horn? Sixto is not on the thread at this moment, does anyone know who Joe Horn is?
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Joe Horn?
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tx-merged.html
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ting-info.html
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...due-moore.html

    Sixto, you are exactly right. A perfect case of somebody who was completely legal in every one of his actions. Was completely honest with the 911 operator. And it ruined his life. Although, I still believe he will be no-billed, having that 911 recording all over the internet has definitely not improved his life.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

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