Home defense hypothetical

This is a discussion on Home defense hypothetical within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi Mitchell CT. But if you just say there has been a shooting, it sounds like even you don't know if it was justified or ...

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  1. #61
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Hi Mitchell CT. But if you just say there has been a shooting, it sounds like even you don't know if it was justified or not because you are making it sound unclear when the fact is that an armed intruder was in your house, you shot him, he seems dead, period. That is not running off at the mouth and it gets across the idea that it is over with. if there is just "a shooting" who knows even initially if it is over, who is at fault etc etc. I think the shooter saying there has been a shooting without explaining, makes it sound like he may be at fault. I think it backfires and actually creates suspicion where there would be none. Why did shooter just say a shooting? Like the outcome was not really clear etc etc
    When police get there, to repeat your initial short clear one sentence statement (see post 21) should not be a problem. Cops on the scene have someone who wants a lawyer even if he is in the right, this raises suspicions immediately and unnecessarily. See post 21, short and sweet, nothing to hide. Otherwise you may have them thinking you dragged the guy inside your house when he was just knocking on your door. Not all interactions with 911 and police need to be this CIA type of secrecy.
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Hi Mitchell CT. But if you just say there has been a shooting, it sounds like even you don't know if it was justified or not because you are making it sound unclear when the fact is that an armed intruder was in your house, you shot him, he seems dead, period. That is not running off at the mouth and it gets across the idea that it is over with. if there is just "a shooting" who knows even initially if it is over, who is at fault etc etc. I think the shooter saying there has been a shooting without explaining, makes it sound like he may be at fault. I think it backfires and actually creates suspicion where there would be none. Why did shooter just say a shooting? Like the outcome was not really clear etc etc


    Most people will get themselves in more trouble my saying more than they will get into by saying less.

    The full story can be told to the police after counsel arrives at the house or after you speak with him the next day.

    What I don't want to see happen is a justifiable shooting go bad because someone ran off at the mouth and landed themselves in hot water because they said something the aught not to have.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    It's like saying, when there is a ten car pileup, uh there has been a little accident here? That is not what happened. It is a huge pileup. Please send help asap! With a shooting in which you were clearly the GG and the BG is deceased and should be, you should tell them that, not in those words but it should be clear that an armed intruder entered my home, he was armed and I saw that he was, I shot him, he seems dead. The door is unlocked. That is the end of it. Now police know what happened, they know it is over with, that some savage is not lurking somewhere with a gun waiting for them, etc.
    Short and sweet and truthful, not diarreah of the mouth, but not like well ,there has been a shooting? Who Why Where When? still there? still firing? How many with guns? It just sets off something in the hearers mind and does nothing to calm them down and does not tell them what happened. It does in fact look as if you yourself do not know if it was a justified shooting or not. And if you don't know, who does? There is absolutely no confidence presented in the words "there has been a shooting."
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Not all interactions with 911 and police need to be this CIA type of secrecy.
    You're right, of course, not all interactions with the police are the same.

    My statements at a traffic stop will differ greatly from my statements after I have been forced to use a firearm for defense, possibly ending somebodys life. YMMV
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  6. #65
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    MitchellCT. I know why you said what you did. The thing is, no one can get in trouble if it is short and sweet and yet says more than there was a shooting. This saying very little sometimes backfires. Again, post 21 for short and sweet and yet you have gotten your point across that you were in the right without coming out and saying it that way.

    And Kerbouchard, why be afraid of saying an intruder came in, armed, I shot him, he looks dead. Period. Now suppose you said just those words. What ramifications could it have.

    I had a case not too long ago. A woman was on the cell phone and her 17 year old son was angry and he charged at her and she had enough time to smack him up the side of the head with the cell phone.
    She called 911 and said there had been an assault.
    Police came to her house and spoke to "the boy" and they arrested her because SHE DID NOT TELL THEM THE WHOLE STORY. She was afraid to talk to police! She was in the right but she had this same fear and so she was arrested and taken away in cuffs and she was the real victim. Oh silence can be so golden.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    The door is unlocked. That is the end of it. Now police know what happened, they know it is over with, that some savage is not lurking somewhere with a gun waiting for them, etc.
    So, the police are going to take your word for it that all is fine and dandy and stroll up to your porch?

    No, they aren't. Also, you don't KNOW if it's over. You don't KNOW that there is not some savage lurking somewhere with a gun. You know where one intruder is. You don't know where his car is. You don't know if there is a getaway driver. You don't know if he has a friend in the basement.

    You don't know anything. You woke up in the middle of the night, grabbed a firearm, shot an intruder, and called 911. You know precious little about what has happened. You can elaborate and give details on the few facts that you know, but why? When they could easily be mistaken?

    You are assuming so much when you tell them it's over, why? How about 2 minutes later when the front door opens because you unlocked it and his buddy walks in while you are giving your narrative to the Dispatcher? Or when the BG wakes up because your 'head shot' only grazed his skull and knocked him out?

    There is a lifetime to go over the details. 2 minutes after you wake up is not the right time. How many facts could you have possibly came to that need to be immediately shared within 2 minutes of waking up? And I still don't know how you can tell the operator with assurance that it's all over, when you have no way of knowing that...and I find it strange that you think the operator is going to take your word for it.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  8. #67
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Well, I think if AN intruder came in and he was armed and you shot him and called 911 and told them briefly, again, see post 21, and police arrived, the likelihood of a criminal swat team lurking would be almost nil, that police would arrive, speak with you, say well looks like you are okay.
    When you shoot the intruder and he is dead and no one opens fire on you and you hear no sounds and no grenades are thrown etc then it can pretty much be assumed that he was and is alone.
    I am sure you find it strange that I would think that the operator would take my word for it, but the fact is that the 911 operator is just that, taking calls and getting info so he or she can dispatch the correct number of police, ambulance, whether it is an ongoing gunfight or whether the BG is on the floor dead. She would take the caller's word for it, yes.
    The 911 operator is not my adversary. The police responding are not my adversaries. There are none at this point. See post 21 for brevity and includes everything they need to know.
    This notion of lawyering-up every time we stub our toe on something is a symptom of the fear we have of waking up every morning wondering if what we do today will be judged by someone five years from now. In this or another thread I remarked about "walking on eggshells". We can do it and it makes life so much more dramatic on a daily basis, but I think it overdoes it.
    Simple things are simple, Complicated things are complicated. Nowadays? We hardly know the difference.
    Call a lawyer when the supermarket gave you the wrong kind of bread? In ten years we will actually be there, if we keep up at the rate we are going :)
    Kerbouchard, Kerbouchard, again, you are making a huge scenario out of what was presented as a simple one. But you and I disagree on everything anyway, and this is fine because we are in America, where disagreement is not only tolerated, it is encouraged. I say black, you say white. I am used to it, as I said. I think we should sign a treaty of peace and have Sixto sign it and keep copies for ourselves :) (smile)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    ... See post 21 for brevity and includes everything they need to know.
    This notion of lawyering-up every time we stub our toe on something is a symptom of the fear we have of waking up every morning wondering if what we do today will be judged by someone five years from now.....
    Call a lawyer when the supermarket gave you the wrong kind of bread?
    I've read post 21, I responded to it and strenuously disagree with it. Just because your innocent doesn't mean you give statements with detail to the police.

    As far as comparing stubbing my toe or getting the wrong type of bread to defending your life and possibly ending somebody else's, well, Wow.

    For anybody who is still reading this thread, do a Google search on Mas Ayoob. See what a real expert has to say on it. Not some keyboard attorney.
    IANAL, YMMV
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    See post number 1 where camguy posted a scenario. I went by the facts presented in that scenario. He presented the facts, and asked HOW to respond to 911. He stated one intruder.
    Keyboard attorney has a nice ring to it. I may change that to my user name. It seriously has a ring to it that makes it sound like I am in a band or something.
    The comparison was not, as you know, between stubbing your toe and getting the wrong type of bread vs defending your life, WOW. That was not the comparison at all. Now go back and read post 69. I hate to keep referring you to posts but you are not focusing on the exact issues, as I can tell by your accusation of comparing bread and toes to shootings.
    I said, that lawyer ing up at the slightest thing, e.g. stubbing your toe, is wrong and not very useful. It makes for great great daily drama in our lives if that is what we are really searching for. And ten years from now, if we keep it up, we will be lawyering-up when the supermarket gives us the wrong bread.
    You must read the posts before you criticize. Your habit of being very critical is fine, but when you don't read the posts you lose sight of what the poster is saying.
    And you once again said that post 21 gives details. It does not. It gives a barebones outline. If you have read post 21 then you can see it is concise with the minimum info.
    Keyboard attorney. Most excellent. But you never answered my suggestion about our peace treaty :)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  11. #70
    Member Array Naturalstate's Avatar
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    Many good points here...

    Some very good advise here.... from an Attorney

    1. Just make sure the police report states "You are the VICTIM" not the home (dead) invader. He is the accused or culprit.

    2. Less is best. An important reply should simply state " I shot to stop the threat on my life" Nothing more Nothing less!! NO STATEMENTS LIKE .. "I knew he was going to kill us" "I warned him" "I only fired 2 shots" "He said shoot me or I will kill you" Period.. ... The next statement should be "I now want to speak with my attorney/counsel"
    Period. Period.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Hi Natural State: Do you have an opinion as to whether post number 21 goes too far?
    And even to a 911 operator the caller should end up by saying he or she would like his attorney? Or do you mean when police arrive?
    Agreed that when police arrive and have all the facts and everything seems all set, no need for shooter to keep going on and on. Should be quiet. But to a 911 op, to tell her I must lawyer-up, I don't think that was meant but I am not sure.
    I would never tell a 911 op that I need a lawyer.
    And there is really no way to make sure the police report says shooter was victim. Police will ask for details but they write their own reports the way they want to write them. For you to say to them can you put me down as the victim, seems a little suspicious, but I think you meant to see how police are going to write their report as we cannot make sure of their report.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naturalstate View Post
    2. Less is best. An important reply should simply state " I shot to stop the threat on my life" Nothing more Nothing less!! NO STATEMENTS LIKE .. "I knew he was going to kill us" "I warned him" "I only fired 2 shots" "He said shoot me or I will kill you" Period.. ... The next statement should be "I now want to speak with my attorney/counsel"
    Period. Period.
    This will be mine, I don't trust anyone. I will give a full statement after I put on my pants and speak to my lawyer.
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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  14. #73
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    If you are in the right, nothing to lose by having a conversation with 911. If you have something to hide, that is a reason to not have a conversation.
    And it is not really a conversation that is rambling, just details so they can get a picture of what happened and is it now still happening?
    So what is wrong with just saying that a bad guy came in, had a gun, I shot him, he appears to be dead, I am armed, door will be unlocked?
    If you state the truth of what happened, it cannot come back to haunt you.
    Most people will not stop when they should, so it is better to give too little information than too much.

    Name. Address. Someone has been shot.

    Less is more.

  15. #74
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Mitchell can you just look at post 21 and down the bottom , if you think those words to 911 are too much? Top of page three on this thread. Bad guy came in, had gun, I shot him, he looks dead, door is unlocked for police. Period. is that too much to say to 911 or police?
    If it is just what they should say, then that is what i advocated awhile ago. It hardly goes into detail and is not even potentially incriminating and does not go on and on and on. But tell me what you think.
    I mean supposing the shooter does stop after saying those words.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Just those words, fine.

    Will it be just those words...are you willing to bet that anyone is capible of stopping after those words?

    Its not that I think too little of people, its that they will be scared, hyped, tired, wired, listening to family screaming, maybe injured, but almost definately high on the most thrilling experience of their lives - a life and death battle in which they won, leaving the corpse of an enemy at their feet.

    Under those circumstances, I like brevity.

    Identity of caller, Location. Shooting incident.

    Simple. Declarative. Non-flowing. Short.

    Enough to get police and EMS on site and you & family safe.

    Nothing more.

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