October 25th, 2005 05:49 PM
Restaurant Hold Up Part Deuce
Okay, little different scenario than originally posted by Bruce 45:
Based closely on a real gang execution in Wichita, KS. You are in your favorite mom-n-pop Asian resturant. The resturant has one front door, opening onto a narrow (+/-4') sidewalk, facing a main thoroughfare. The front of the place is lightly mirrored plate glass. "Exit" signs indicate a second door through the kitchen. On entering, directly ahead, but behind the checkout, is a stairway, leading to an "unknown" upstairs. Parking is in a small lot, behind the resturant, where the kitchen door opens, or along the less busy sidestreet. The neighborhood is "little Asia" to the north and east, latin gang territory runs west and south, Crips, Bloods, and Junior Boys (mostly black) run northwest.
You are dining, about 8 pm, seated close to the north wall, the cash register to your right, the front entrance to your left. Size of the room is roughly 40"x40". Four other patrons are dining (two couples), and the family (6 members)owning the resturant are cooking/serving/bussing. You carry whatever you normally carry (at the time I was using a Glock 19, with three mags spare, IWB). As you are finishing, 6 asian "yutes" enter, and fan out from the doorway. Two produce AK-47's (sawn off stocks), one has a short shotty, the other three have HG's. As they enter, the first three immediately head for the fregister/kitchen area, the one with the shotty runs towards the upstairs, leaving one HG, and one unlimbering his AK to tell you patrons where to go (it will be the north wall, the one at your back). You hear the shotgun upstairs at the same time you hear a crash and screaming from the kitchen. (HG is looking at "you all", and AK is getting his piece from under his trench coat, looking back at the kitchen)
Where do you go from there? (starting as they walk in, to the first moment you see a weapon). At the time, I was single, and always armed; take it as you would most commonly find yourself, now.
October 25th, 2005 07:21 PM
First - off - I would never I think be eating such an area.
However if I was - and this at first consideration of what you describe - I would play things real cool to the max - odds are deperately stacked against me.
I could only envisage any shooting by me as a last ditch way to die more slowly - if they start general hostilities. Very nasty odds indeed.
Chris - P95
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October 25th, 2005 07:22 PM
hard to make a choice without being there. Best bet would be to wait and see, while keeping a eye on all visible BG's. Also look for cover(not concealment). Observe and be ready for action. If possible my HG would be discretely drawn and raedy should I need it.
October 25th, 2005 09:06 PM
Tough situation. The AKs and shotty worry me. One part of me says be cool unless they start executing customers and your life is in certain danger. However, by the time they decide to go postal it may be too late - they could all 6 be back in the dining room and just light it up.
A better idea might be to wait for the slightest distraction then head for the door as discreetly as possible, with gun drawn but out of sight. In this case, only firing if fired upon, and only to cover yourself as you are running out the door.
Even that could be risky. Especially if they are between you and the customers and they open fire. It all depends on the feeling you get off these guys. If they are just here for "business" or if they are crazed and looking for violence. If I start getting a serious SHTF vibe, I would try to take out AK first, then HG as quickly as possible and recover the AK for myself. At that point, either run as fast as possible out of there, or if flight is impossible, search for the best cover (or even concealment) and take out the BGs with the AK as they come.
Very hard one to call. Bottom line - 6 guys with far superior firepower are controlling the situation. Fighting is definitely last ditch, only to be used if you are sure you will be dispatched on their way out. Hopefully I never find myself in that situation. Even if I make it home, my shorts would end up in the trash instead of the hamper.
October 25th, 2005 09:12 PM
Rob72 please clarify that hearing the shotgun upstairs means that someone is firing a shotgun upstairs? I'll assume we have shots fired.
Once shooting begins it's time to go. If they are shooting then I need to be shooting and moving. Not sure how much room I have but the HG guy is out and ready so he is first, AK guy is next. Moving towards the exit if that is possible. Try to cover the kitchen and or stairs for re-entry of others while trying to get people out of the place if possible. Hopefully no others on the outside, but need to look for that as well.
Bad scenario, people will bleed and some may die, myself included, but that is what you dealt us.
Since I'm no longer young and immortal I guess this is why I don't go to places like this no matter how good the food is. Now when I was young and immortal I would have been there.
October 25th, 2005 10:13 PM
I always eat facing the entrance with the HK in easy to draw mode. The wife and family are aware of this, and let me have prefered seating, then the wife and daughter have their .357's too. I have this paranoia about Pizza Hut every time I go there, too easy of a target for my likeing.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
October 26th, 2005 12:38 AM
Its a trick question ... no CCW in Kansas (and up until a year or so ago, no open carry either).
Originally Posted by Rob72
What restaurant is this? I lived in Wichita most of my life and I don't remember a shootout at an Asian restaurant (although I moved away a little more then 3 years ago).
October 26th, 2005 02:09 PM
As it actually happened (about 2 or so months after I moved to TN), there was no shootout; it was a gang execution, and I believe they waited until close and/or kicked out the last couple of customers.
Originally Posted by Zundfolge
Sorry 'bout that, looking at the city map, it would have been on 21st, around Waco to Arkansas, and would have been about 1996-'97. It would have been on your righthand side (north, IIRC), heading west, on 21st(I don't remember the name of the resturant), before you intersect with Amidon. I recall one of those odd-ball wedge-shaped buildings (came to a sharp V) not far to the east (still on 21st)of the resturant- maybe even on the same block? This was around the same time that PD had a major confrontation with one of the black gangs, that tied up both east- and westside patrols, and "somehow", just didn't make the 6 o'clock news . As far as the neighborhood, it doesn't (didn't) "look" bad; a fairly typical ethnic resturant, and if you didn't work fire/EMS/PD/SO, you wouldn't know the, ah, "demographics".
I think most of us are fairly "suburbanite", and on the "over 20" range, and possibly not in the habit of going to the "ethinc" parts of town, anymore. OTOH, I have always thought of this as a prime example of wrong-place-wrong-time. Asian and Laitn gangs are big into protection rackets, with a reach that typically extends as far as "their people" operate businesses. They are hard, fast, brutal, and generally under the scope of most folks outside their immediate influence and not living in the immediate neighborhood. If after one of their own, they prefer the drive-by, or snatch-n-shoot("shoot" after pliers, heat gun, drill, etc..). Their greatest "general public" contact comes when they make a statement about non-compliant tithers, either with a public beating (fairly common), or execution (less so). We talk about SHTF in many contexts; to me this has always been one of the most likely. Whether you move to a new area, or just try a new place to shop or eat, and you end up in the middle of "bidness".
Regarding the law. I was, and am, aware of the laws in KS. I was not specifically placing this scenario there. I cannot and do not advocate breaking the law. Possibly it was simply working EMS and living where I did, but Wichita was a particularly ugly place, with no particular boundaries of "places to avoid", as far as violence. I'm well aware that , regardless of where you are, many things happen that you'll never hear about. Given the sunshine-face that the mayor seemed intent on dispalying, it seemed a bit worse, there. I moved to ICT, from the neighborhood of the 610 loop and Cavalcade, in Houston,TX.
Scott, yeah, that would be the "go" cue- the SG firing.
Sheldon, I always worry about a crazy ex-BF/GF coming in to the pizza place and going after their significat other, indescriminantly....
October 26th, 2005 03:30 PM
Sounds like The Mandarin.
No AK's used then, but the lady who owned the place was murdered in a robbery there ... would have been back in the '90s sometime.
As for avoiding that neighborhood, my favorite Mexican place is at 21st and Arkansas (I grew up in that part of town actually ... well a little south of that part of town anyway ... and my folks still live up 'round 25th and Amidon).
The V shaped building, was it Yellow and on the south side of 21st by a large set of railroad tracks? If so that was all a bit east of Waco (the building I'm talking about is at 21st and Broadway).
Oh, and I never had any problems carrying in ICT as I knew plenty of WPD and most of them had an "I'll look the other way as long as you don't do something stupid" attitude about CCW. Plus its a pretty minor misdemeanor there.
Anyway, I'm pretty glad I don't live there anymore ... 'bout the only thing I miss about ICT is the restaurants.
As for your scenario, you have two armed guys left with you and all the patrons, one pulling a rifle out from under a coat?
Draw ... shoot the HG guy first (since his weapon is already in play) then shoot the AK guy. Then instruct everyone to leave and you follow ... get a good half a block away and then call 911.
You're not going to save anyone upstairs or in the kitchen, you need to eliminate the two threats in front of you and get out before more threats show up.
October 26th, 2005 05:26 PM
Wasn't going to mention it, but at least 1/3 of the fire and EMS guys I worked with operated on that system.......
Originally Posted by Zundfolge
The Mandarin sounds right, but I was thinking there was a husband and a couple or so sisters, or brothers, shot (maybe not killed?) too.
November 10th, 2005 06:45 PM
It's always possible to devise a no-win scenario. In this case as soon as the longarms appear it's time to exit the AO. Kill the BGs between you and the nearest exit, and run.
There's too much probability the BGs will kill patrons, or search/ rob them, in addition to whatever else they may have in mind.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
November 16th, 2005 09:03 PM
I'm with Scott and Zund. You're already in deep dodo; right now there's just 2 BG's close, HG's deadliest. Do it and move!
Last edited by Bob F.; November 16th, 2005 at 09:04 PM.
November 16th, 2005 09:44 PM
Should also add: hope I have the Glock and spare mag, not just the PA-63!!
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