My Walmart Adventure

This is a discussion on My Walmart Adventure within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Kerbouchard Actually, your argument is the kind of thing that they anti's always bring up when they are pushing their agendas. You're ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Actually, your argument is the kind of thing that they anti's always bring up when they are pushing their agendas. You're playing right into their hands.

    "Sooner or later one of you guys out there with guns playing cop are going to get someone killed. You have no right to carry a gun when you might accidently fire a stray bullet. I shudder to think if it was my family member that got hit by a stray bullet when you started firing in a public place."

    It's the exact same argument. And the reason it is so effective is because people on our side sanction not getting involved, and 'letting the police handle it.'
    But there has to be a line somewhere. Not every crime is worth the risk you'd take by intervening with your gun. If I happened on someone getting their head pounded against the pavement by a couple of dirtbags who were robbing him, well, I'd most likely present my gun. But a purse, in totally unclear circumstances? Losing sight of the BG? Come on.

    All he would have had to have done would have been to circle the parking lot with 911 on the line, keep the BG in sight, and get the plate number of the car he got into. It'd have been easy to do, since he was with his wife, and one of them could have watched the BG while the other drove. If he were feeling really energetic, he could have followed the BG's car, informing the 911 operator of their whereabouts, until the police arrived on-scene and pulled him over. Easy as pie, no guns come out, and nobody gets killed.

    The police have training that I don't, have special protections under the law that I don't, and have backup that I don't. I'd just as soon let the professionals handle it.
    G17, G26

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    It's the exact same argument. And the reason it is so effective is because people on our side sanction not getting involved, and 'letting the police handle it.'
    the reason it is a successful argument is that too many gun carriers don't know where to draw the line when talking about these scenarios. A gun is a rather "blunt" instrument in the sense that it is nothing you can dial from "kill" to "stun". Its "kill only". As such, whenever you use your gun to stop a crime, you have to be ready to kill the criminal. A car theft is not the right place to do this. Thats exactly what the anti-gun lobby is getting everybody riled up on, and it is very important to show that you as a responsible gun owner understand that there are situations in which a gun is no-good.

    BTW: Don't even try to think "oh. I just draw the gun and he will stop". Once you draw, you have to be ready and willing to shoot.

  4. #48
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    I have to agree with packin45. There is a line. Its a purse folks...the OP stated twice that he almost got killed from being run over. Is someone's purse worth that? I'm trying to imagine that I was in the situation only i did get run over and killed.....and a police officer telling my wife, son, and daughter that their husband and father died going after a stolen purse. I'm all for standing up for whats right, but that is not how I would honor my family. The purse was stolen from an empty car, not from an attack on the owner, and no one was in peril at the time the crime was committed. Nor was the OP and his wife absolutely sure of what was happening.

    I totally agree that crime is out of control and we as citizens should have the authority to stand up for ourselves and our community. But chasing people down throwing all caution to the wind trying to APPREHEND a criminal, gun or no, is extremely dangerous. What was the criminal expected to do once the gun was displayed? Stop and get out of the car...submit?? Heck no, that would mean getting caught; any criminal will try to do something to avoid being caught, and in this case, run you over.

  5. #49
    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    PackerfanXD did a good thing with putting his testicles on the line. Granted I would have broke contact once I lost sight of the perp unless I knew exactly what he looked like. But let me quote to summerize --

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    and by no means would I ever be accused of being a bible thumper, just ask my mom but I will also attempt a quote --

    When good men do nothing, they get nothing good done. To be good, one must do good. The Lord commands his people to do good (Luke 6:35; Eph. 2:10).
    Christ "gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14).


    I will always remember that line - "I will be judged by my works" ,,, nuff said on that lest I be accused of being religious, mom would truly laugh at that one and granny would roll in her grave laughing at me for attempting to quote bible verse.
    Honor, Courage, Virtue. These are what makes a man.
    "The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps."
    Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945

  6. #50
    Member Array starshooter231's Avatar
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    PackerfanXD,
    I think you did just fine. It might not have been the smartest thing in the world to do but it was the right thing to do.

    I am glad to hear nobody was harmed, and I hope the LEOs catch this scumbag.
    Michigan Gun Owner
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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array Packman73's Avatar
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    jarhead45, starshooter231, thanks.



    Were there things I could've done differently? Sure.
    It is what it is; if you can take a lesson from it, great.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    No, you guys are missing the point. The OP said he thought he saw someone "jimmy the door", and he thought he saw someone steal something from a car. He also thought he saw the BG in a car that was backing out of a parking spot, not long after losing sight of him during a foot chase, but apparently wasn't 100% sure of that, either.
    I think the point you are missing (from a legal standpoint) is that in the section cited regarding justification it says the standard is reasonable belief. So let's say it went south and he ended up firing his weapon. If it comes to trial the questions that I would expect to come up are:
    1) Based on the totality of the circumstances was his beliefreasonable that a crime was in progress?
    2) If the answer to #1 is yes, what was that crime?
    Under 13-1506 (depending on how they define a "manipulation key") we have a third degree burglary.
    Depending on how they define "deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument" we now may have a first degree burglary under 13-1508.

    So if he meets the standard of 13-1508, 13-411 says he is justified in threatening or using physical or deadly force.

    Was it the smartest thing to do that day? Opinions obviously vary. Is it something I would do myself? I don't know. Would he end up in a court room? I think it depends on how well he could articulate what he saw and why he did what he did to the officers that show up.
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  9. #53
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    I'm just playing with ya mcp on the key thing, I don't know for sure about the definition either... but I just like playing defense attorney sometimes.

    The thing I have to point out is, whether it was a burglary, theft or whatever, does it constitute deadly force? Burglary from a dwelling and from a vehicle are to very different things, and a jury will take that into account no matter the state.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawwg View Post
    There have been too many incidents like this where 'good intentions' ended up in misery for the would-be good samaritans. You've heard all the stories about bad guys getting injured during their commission of a crime and then turning the tables on the victim.

    Our court system is ridiculous sometimes and bends over backwards to make sure the criminals get the benefit of the doubt. Criminal defense lawyers protect these scumbags and good citizens get punished. We live in a time where it's not really the BG's fault that he went on a shooting spree..., he only did so because he had a "bad childhood" and he is actually a victim!.

    Too many well-intentioned citizens have been punished for trying to help someone and now our society has become a "hear no evil, see no evil, do nothing" type society. Everyones too afraid they are going to get sued or imprisoned for trying to help someone. The criminals have gotten the upper-hand.

    jp
    The media whores played the VT shooter as a "victim" and it sickens me to this day... same thing they also did for the milk man turned mass murderer, they tried to paint him in as a "victim" though he had KY Jelly to molest the little girls with, what will become of our sociaty several decades from now if it's this pathetic already?
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I hear ya Sixto One of the things about this forum is that we have people from all walks of life and from all over the world. As I have mentioned in other threads, here in Texas I can do something and get a pat onthe back from the Sheriff and a "Good Citizen" award from the local chamber of commerce that back in Maryland would have had me locked up for twenty years.
    State laws on use of force are written by people that they will be directly effecting. They could easily find themselves on either side of the situation. They also get a lot more play in the local media than something like LEOSA would. It seems to me they are a much better barometer of what we could expect from a jury in that state. All a defense attorney would have to do is seat one juror that would understand the laws as I see them and there is no conviction. Down in this part of the country I don't think that would be too hard to do.

    I don't get too deep into the moral questions on some of these things. My big question is were the actions described in the post within the law? I figure most laws are based on prevailing community standards, so if I don't live in that community, my opinion on how right or wrong the law is is a moot point. I have a problem with a particular law, I can support those in that community that are trying to change it, or stay out of the area under its influence.
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  12. #56
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    My big question is were the actions described in the post within the law?
    Ok lets go back to your previous post mcp:

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So let's say it went south and he ended up firing his weapon. If it comes to trial the questions that I would expect to come up are:
    1) Based on the totality of the circumstances was his beliefreasonable that a crime was in progress?
    2) If the answer to #1 is yes, what was that crime?
    Under 13-1506 (depending on how they define a "manipulation key") we have a third degree burglary.
    Depending on how they define "deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument" we now may have a first degree burglary under 13-1508.

    So if he meets the standard of 13-1508, 13-411 says he is justified in threatening or using physical or deadly force.
    With the exception of maybe Texas(not sure about Arizona?), I'm not aware of any law anywhere that justifies the use of deadly force to stop property theft, especially when the property does not belong to YOU. And I believe that's exactly what it is becuse the the purse's owner was not present when the theft ocurred. It was stolen from a parked car.

    Go back to CCW laws. There are some differences state to state, but I think that most of them allow for/limit the use of deadly force when your life, or life of another is at risk or grave bodily harm. Some exceptions to that would be the castle doctrine laws that allow use of deadly force in your home or occupied vehicle.

    I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how you think the OP would be justified in the use of deadly force to stop the thief. I think he would get roasted in court. I think that the question is not that he was in belief that a crime was occurring so he could use his weapon. I think the question that will be asked is was he or anyone else in imminent danger of death or grave bodily harm when the crime occurred?

    Maybe I'm getting hung up in how the crime is defined, robbery, burglary or theft, but if it was simple theft or 3rd deg burglary as you deduce, is a jury going to side with the use of deadly force for this situation?

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Jonesy 26,
    If you read the section quoted in post #23 of this thread, Arizona law (13-411 as quoted) does provide for the use of deadly force to protect property. No where in that section does it say there is a requirement for that force to be in self defense.
    The section is titled "13-411. Justification; use of force in crime prevention; applicability"
    In A. it specifically lists burglary in the first or second degree which are property crimes.
    In B. it states there is no duty to retreat.
    In C. It says there is a presumption that the person is acting reasonably if acting to prevent any of the offenses listed in A.
    In D. It states that this section is not limited to the persons home, residence, place of business, land the person owns or leases, conveyence of any kind, or any other place in this state where the person has a right to be.

    So D allows someone to threaten or use physical or deadly force to prevent second or first degree burglary at properties that are not their own.
    If the BG smashed the window of the car and grabbed the purse this section would not apply, because it would not meet the standard of the third degree burglary. I could be wrong but if they consider a slim jim type device to be a "manipulation key" that is a third degree burglary. If they consider that two foot long metal blade with a hook at the end a "dangerous instrument", or if the BG is found to be carrying a pocket knife or any other kind of weapon, it is a first degree burglary. And going back to 13-411 what is required is that the person in question "reasonably believes" that they are acting to prevent one of the listed crimes. This law (as I see it) does not give a green light to shoot every guy with a slim jim. It has those magic words "if and to the extent".
    If you yell at the guy and he drops the bag and runs, his theft is over and he gets to go on his merry way. As I see it if he is still in the parking lot and still has the bag in his posession this is still an in progress event until he either is caught and secured or makes good his escape.
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  14. #58
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    You are still missing the point, all of you. Nowhere here was deadly force justified to stop the theft of the purse. I think it is highly debatable whether the OP should have given chase at all. Sure, he was doing what was RIGHT. However, just like the other thread where the guy at the grocery store chased the robbers and they shot an innocent, the grocery store is being sued bigtime by the deceased man's estate.

    That is one part of the argument. I agree that the smart thing to do was hope to be a good witness without giving chase.

    Where you all are getting tied up, however, is after that part. The threat of deadly force was justified once the BG tried to run the OP over, assuming the man in the car was truly the BG. I think he was. If not, then the OP would be up poo creek, but lets just assume it was.

    Sure, there could be question about whether giving chase was wise, but you guys are all incinuating that lethal force would have been used (it was not) to stop a simple purse-snatching. I believe you are mistaken, and have to separate the two different crimes. The first being the "burglary" itself, the second being the attempted murder upon the OP by the BG with his car (deadly weapon for sure).

    You need to untie this in order to succesfully analyze it.

  15. #59
    Member Array whyipackmy45's Avatar
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    He chased him and got the plate numbers. I'd say that's a job well done.

    The fact is that he DIDN'T draw his weapon, so obviously even with the adrenaline pumping he knew what was the correct action.
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  16. #60
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So D allows someone to threaten or use physical or deadly force to prevent second or first degree burglary at properties that are not their own.
    If the BG smashed the window of the car and grabbed the purse this section would not apply, because it would not meet the standard of the third degree burglary. I could be wrong but if they consider a slim jim type device to be a "manipulation key" that is a third degree burglary.
    OK i went back and read that section, and I see where you are coming from. In my opinion though, the margin could be awful narrow in how the law would be interpreted and applied to this situation. If it wasn't 1st or 2nd degree burglary(for whatever reason), our brother in arms might have been up pook creek to quote another poster.

    I've been following this thread closely and there are 2 areas of contention among the masses with threads like this: 1. We all want to "do the right thing", but how much should we get involved? and 2. Will we be on the side of the law when we do act? It comes down to individual judgement.

    Those things are always disputed when one of us writes in that we had to act in a given situation or god forbid draw our weapon. At the end of the day, even if we don't agree on each others' actions, the good news is things generally turn out well, and everyone is OK.

    Good discussion.

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