My Walmart Adventure

This is a discussion on My Walmart Adventure within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by packin45 Oh geez.....yet another story of a permit holder playing cop. Since none of you other guys will put this in it's ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    Oh geez.....yet another story of a permit holder playing cop. Since none of you other guys will put this in it's proper perspective, I guess I will.

    What would you have done if the 'perp' had stopped and gotten out of his car with, say, a baseball bat, for a little payback? I'll tell you; you'd have been forced to shoot him...and that's if you manage to hit only him, and not Grandma or little Billy. So, we end up with one dead BG, and possibly some bystanders getting hit, all because you decided to chase some guy that you think was possibly breaking into someone else's car.

    And that's just one scenario. What if the guy in the beater wasn't your 'perp' after all, but just some working stiff like me, leaving Wal-Mart after a formula and diaper run, with my 7 month old strapped in the back. You think I'd stop?

    What you did was a mistake, and you are very lucky that nobody was killed or injured due to your actions. Use your brain next time.

    Perfectly said!

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    SUSPECTED someone of stealing something from SOMEBODY ELSE'S car?

    That's for the police.

    No way in Tartarus am I going to risk my life and limb for some stranger's STUFF.

    -JT

  4. #63
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    You are still missing the point, all of you. Nowhere here was deadly force justified to stop the theft of the purse. I think it is highly debatable whether the OP should have given chase at all. Sure, he was doing what was RIGHT. However, just like the other thread where the guy at the grocery store chased the robbers and they shot an innocent, the grocery store is being sued bigtime by the deceased man's estate.

    That is one part of the argument. I agree that the smart thing to do was hope to be a good witness without giving chase.

    Where you all are getting tied up, however, is after that part. The threat of deadly force was justified once the BG tried to run the OP over, assuming the man in the car was truly the BG. I think he was. If not, then the OP would be up poo creek, but lets just assume it was.

    Sure, there could be question about whether giving chase was wise, but you guys are all incinuating that lethal force would have been used (it was not) to stop a simple purse-snatching. I believe you are mistaken, and have to separate the two different crimes. The first being the "burglary" itself, the second being the attempted murder upon the OP by the BG with his car (deadly weapon for sure).

    You need to untie this in order to succesfully analyze it.
    Well yes and no. Under MN law, the OP would have been crucified for even drawing down on the person in the car, much less shooting the guy. Not to mention the fact that we're again straying toward the playing cop with a carry permit scenario, because the only thing that really put the OP at risk of death or GBH was his attempt to try to physically stop the suspect vehicle and detain it's driver. Now, it's got to take a lot less time to jump out of the way of a slow moving car than it does to draw, aim, and fire on it's driver; going for his gun actually put the OP at a much greater risk than just stepping aside and letting the car continue on it's merry way.

    I can guarantee you that if I were the driver of the car in question, the dude standing in front of my car with a gun pointed at me is definately getting hit, and hard. I'm not risking any parting shots through the back window if I swerve around him.....especially if my family is with me.
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  5. #64
    New Member Array DrShooter45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    I can guarantee you that if I were the driver of the car in question, the dude standing in front of my car with a gun pointed at me is definately getting hit, and hard. I'm not risking any parting shots through the back window if I swerve around him.....especially if my family is with me.


    I do commend the efforts of the OP for doing what is 'right'. However, the issue I have after analyzing the situations as TaticalCompact suggested is this- Without a definite confirmation of the 'perp' being in the vehicle that attempted to 'kill you', how could you be sure that the possibly innocent people were not doing so to prevent, what in their eyes appeared to be, you stealing their vehicle?

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array Packman73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrShooter45 View Post
    how could you be sure that the possibly innocent people were not doing so to prevent, what in their eyes appeared to be, you stealing their vehicle?
    Simple. I looked over and saw the guy I was chasing was in the car.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackerfanXD View Post
    Simple. I looked over and saw the guy I was chasing was in the car.
    Uh... Not to be a smart aleck, but it took seven pages for you to suddenly divulge this critical bit of information? The point has been raised repeatedly about the identity of the person in the car being the same as the guy you chased and lost sight of, you have replied in this thread many times, and you never made that statement until just now. Or, did I miss it somewhere? If so, sorry for this post. But I gotta tell ya cops are paid to be suspicious, if you were being questioned regarding this and failed to make that statement until all this has passed... I gotta think right now your creditability begins to come under some scrutiny. That'll probably make you mad, but think about it and look at the situation from others point of view. I don't want to be out of line, but it begs the question of why you haven't made this perfectly clear before now?

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array Packman73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GC View Post
    I don't want to be out of line, but it begs the question of why you haven't made this perfectly clear before now?
    Because it seemed to me that most of these posts are from armchair QBs who were not there. Why would I continue to post when I'm being attacked?

  9. #68
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    forgive my ignorance but

    what is a OP , BG , QB ???

    i would have called 911, gave a description of the thug and circled the parking lot to see what car he got into and got the plate number. but that's me. you did what you thought was right. all we (and you) can do now is learn from this...

    edit...

    OP = Original Poster

    BG = Bad Guy

    QB = Quarterback
    Last edited by JustInCase; June 6th, 2008 at 10:13 PM. Reason: think i got um...

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    .......The guy can't undo any of it or rewrite his past...so help others learn from it with intelligent and polite, constructive comments.........

    Please Educate...don't Humiliate...we are all on the same side of the fence here.
    True. This one is in the history books. But for everyone that has a permit/license to carry, in my opinion, this is what not to do. You are escalating an incident that is otherwise a minor event. You not only put yourself in physical danger, but any bystanders that were in close proximity to the BG attempting to depart the scene. One can only imagine the legal and financial implications that could have unfolded if the gun had to be drawn. There were no initial threats to anybody - don't create one. Call the cops and give a description along with a license # if available and call it a day.

  11. #70
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    I believe that Texas does have a charge of Burglary of an Automobile, maybe some Texas attorney will correct me on that one.. One particular POS is on probation for that particular offense after stealing my wifes purse from our van in our driveway about 4 years ago. She had just carried our son inside and went back out to get the purse, and got the guys license plate while calling him some not so nice things as ran to his car. I did visit his house, and speak to his mother recommending that she visit the local police station, which she did. Sorry to say the detective was none too thrilled that I visited their home, but since it was in another state there ain't much he could do about it.

    Anyway to my real point. I am glad that the OP came out of this one ok. I don't fault you for doing anything you did, other than possibly showing your weapon. If all we are going to do is call the Leo's every time we see someone commit a crime then we deserve what we get when society goes to hell in a handbag. No he isn't a Leo, but there is nowhere that I know of that says a Leo is the only one that is authorized to stop a crime in progress. Also I haven't read anywhere that says once you get your CHL, CCW, whatever you want to call it you have to act like you don't have a set, assuming you have one to start with. I read too many times on here that after we get our permits we have to act differently, why? If you were out of line before I got my permit I would call you on it, I ain't changing just cause I have a permit in my pocket or a pistol on my hip.

    I hope the Leo's get the guy, and he actually gets something on his record for it. Maybe one less POS out there to make honest peoples lives misserable.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #71
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    I read too many times on here that after we get our permits we have to act differently, why? If you were out of line before I got my permit I would call you on it, I ain't changing just cause I have a permit in my pocket or a pistol on my hip.
    The "why" is because if you are packing and get involved in a fray, you have just introduced a weapon into the situation. Before, if you weren't packing and got involved in a fight, it was just a fight. With the weapon on board, now you have complex responsibilities and issues you didn't have when not carrying a firearm. This is Chess, not Checkers and requires a great deal of maturity and forethought on the part of the person carrying the firearm.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GC View Post
    The "why" is because if you are packing and get involved in a fray, you have just introduced a weapon into the situation. Before, if you weren't packing and got involved in a fight, it was just a fight. With the weapon on board, now you have complex responsibilities and issues you didn't have when not carrying a firearm. This is Chess, not Checkers and requires a great deal of maturity and forethought on the part of the person carrying the firearm.
    You have only introduced a weapon if you actually pull the weapon out. Before you got your permit, did you carry a pocket knife. If so, everytime you got in some type of confrontation did you go for your knife? I hope not. Yes, life is a game of chess, but just because you have a permit, doesn't mean the only piece you can move is your queen. I still have all my other pieces also, and like the queen, the pistol only gets used as a last resort. That doesn't mean I am going to let someone else take all my other pieces, ie roll over and stop living the way I always have, until I am left with only the choice of pulling my gun.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  14. #73
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackerfanXD View Post
    Because it seemed to me that most of these posts are from armchair QBs who were not there. Why would I continue to post when I'm being attacked?
    I wish you wouldn't view my posts as a personal attack on you, and I do apologize for being a bit harsh. To put it as simply as possible, I look at life a lot differently than I once did, now that I have a family and a baby at home, and I wouldn't want one of them to be an innocent bystander during this type of situation. I do commend you for manning up and trying to do the right thing.
    G17, G26

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  15. #74
    GC
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    You have only introduced a weapon if you actually pull the weapon out.
    Not true, you introduce the weapon as soon as you become actively involved as a CCW holder and carrier of a handgun. Because YOU brought the weapon, now there IS a weapon in the confrontation where there was none before. This is the Chess and Maturity part... ya gotta think things through.

    It is like the police officer that attempts an arrest of an unarmed, but violent and resisting offender. As soon as the officer becomes active in the arrest process, now there is a weapon present where there wasn't one before. Maybe the officer has absolutely no intention of drawing his weapon because there is no reason for deadly force. However, he must be conscious of the fact that he is wearing a handgun and he must act to protect that handgun. There was an old statistic that stated about 20% of police are killed with their own weapon. The handgun was snatched out of the officer’s holster, or, wrestled away from them somehow and then turned on the officer with murderous results. Offenders have admitted they had no intention of harming the officer, UNTIL AFTER the fight began and escalated. Once things reach a certain plateau then the offender took the gun that was available to them, the officers, and then used it on that officer.

    Carrying a handgun means there IS a weapon with you, and, that weapon must be considered in how you behave and all your actions. If you choose to jump into every little fray you run across, then know this, every little fray you run across will have at least one weapon involvement. It is a thinkers game...

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GC View Post
    The "why" is because if you are packing and get involved in a fray, you have just introduced a weapon into the situation. Before, if you weren't packing and got involved in a fight, it was just a fight. With the weapon on board, now you have complex responsibilities and issues you didn't have when not carrying a firearm. This is Chess, not Checkers and requires a great deal of maturity and forethought on the part of the person carrying the firearm.
    Yes you are introducing a weapon, but it seems you are assuming that is the only weapon present. If I was to get into a fist fight while not carrying how am I to know that the other person is unarmed too?
    When I was in high school it was not unusual for us to carry pocket knives. It was not unusual for us to get into fights while carrying knives. This does not mean we had a bunch of knife fights.
    As I see it the only additional responsibility one has in the situation is making sure the weapon stays in the holster until and unless there is legal justification for it to come out. We all assume that responsibility each time we walk out the door.
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