My Walmart Adventure

This is a discussion on My Walmart Adventure within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Maybe I have just missed other threads or got lucky and not tripped over them... - OR - My fellow site members are getting touchy, ...

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Thread: My Walmart Adventure

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Maybe I have just missed other threads or got lucky and not tripped over them...

    - OR -

    My fellow site members are getting touchy, cranky, irritable, and down right

    We have a member who related 30 seconds of his day and the events that transpired from second 1 and the decisions that he made.

    None of us are perfect, and will make the right decision every time in any situation.

    Popular opinion - Call the police, give a description of the suspect, go on with your life. That will get filed with the stuff to do on a really slow day.

    OP choice IMO correct to a point, follow and get more intel. Better description, vehicle, ect.

    Lost sight of perp, sees car backing out and steps behind it;
    I run in back of it (stupid), slap the trunk with my hands and yelled for him to stop. He didn't.
    OK, any honest citizen backing out of a space and someone yells STOP while hitting the trunk, they are going to stop "What did I just about run over, a person, a kid... The OP got the right car, dicey move on his part but the right car regardless of losing sight of the suspect.

    OK now what? The ante just got upped. Do that to a cop, plainclothes or uniform, and that is vehicular assault/attempted vehicular homicide. Do the Police hesitate to draw and fire? Yes, I know we are not police, does that mean that the classification of a deadly weapon and crime committed changes?

    The snowball effect has started rolling, and the OP and the suspect are committed to it's end pending the choices they make with every heartbeat. No time to analyze and think it through, just act & react. OODA loop I think it is called.

    And here a great many of you are, picking apart every second of his actions.

    The OP is not a cop, was not playing cop, he was doing what he thought was the right thing to do at the time.

    Personally, I would have more concern over someone stealing my wallet than my car. I know you have all heard of identity theft, and a purse/wallet is chock full of all a body needs to completely RUIN a persons life in short order, let alone a quick home robbery while the victim is at Wally World WAITING for the police to show up to make a report.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GC View Post
    Not true, you introduce the weapon as soon as you become actively involved as a CCW holder and carrier of a handgun. Because YOU brought the weapon, now there IS a weapon in the confrontation where there was none before. This is the Chess and Maturity part... ya gotta think things through.

    You are assuming the other person doesn't have a weapon. I assume that anyone I meet does have a weapon. I hope your assumptions don't leave you on the short end of the stick one day. Your also assuming that other have not though about different scenarios, you are wrong on that point. Maybe, just maybe, others either think differently or have a different set of standards than you do.

    It is like the police officer that attempts an arrest of an unarmed, but violent and resisting offender. As soon as the officer becomes active in the arrest process, now there is a weapon present where there wasn't one before. Maybe the officer has absolutely no intention of drawing his weapon because there is no reason for deadly force. However, he must be conscious of the fact that he is wearing a handgun and he must act to protect that handgun. There was an old statistic that stated about 20% of police are killed with their own weapon. The handgun was snatched out of the officer’s holster, or, wrestled away from them somehow and then turned on the officer with murderous results. Offenders have admitted they had no intention of harming the officer, UNTIL AFTER the fight began and escalated. Once things reach a certain plateau then the offender took the gun that was available to them, the officers, and then used it on that officer.

    No this scenario is nothing like the officer trying to arrest an unarmed but violet offender. I don't know that the OP said he was trying to arrest the guy who broke into the car. It is a given that the officer does have a weapon, the BG always knows that. For those of us that carry concealed, the only time that somone should know about the weapon is when we present it. If you go back and read my original post on this, I stated that I didn't think it was a good thing for him to pull his shirt up to expose the weapon.

    Carrying a handgun means there IS a weapon with you, and, that weapon must be considered in how you behave and all your actions. If you choose to jump into every little fray you run across, then know this, every little fray you run across will have at least one weapon involvement. It is a thinkers game...

    I don't think anyone on this forum thinks they should jump in on every little fray. I have been on this forum for a couple of years now, and have yet to see that in any serious post. Yes when we get involved there will be at least one weapon on one person, that doesn't mean that the weapon is involved in the scenario. Although to steal someone elses signature line, the best weapon is your brain, so in that sense there will be at least two weapons in each scenario, but probably not evenly matched.

    There are those on here that will not simply stand by and let some things under certain circumstances go without trying to intervene. That level is different for different people. There is not a single right answer for each scenario. What is right for me isn't always right for you. We each have to live with our own choices.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #78
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Good job man. Wish their were more like you.

  5. #79
    GC
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    I guess I lack the skills to properly convey the point I am attempting to make. To continue the discussion on the flat screen is probably pointless with my evidently limited verbal skills. I think in person we could communicate considerably better and at the least understand the point the other is trying to make. One thing farronwolf, I seldom make assumptions or speculate, please don't let a miscommunication lead you to false assumptions either. Have a great day and stay safe! :)

  6. #80
    Member Array mrlee7878's Avatar
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    Does citizens arrest still exist? And if so what does it mean to anyone?
    I would rather sit before 12 than be carried by 6

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    to the remaining eleven disciples following the last supper.

  7. #81
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Maybe I have just missed other threads or got lucky and not tripped over them...

    - OR -

    My fellow site members are getting touchy, cranky, irritable, and down right

    We have a member who related 30 seconds of his day and the events that transpired from second 1 and the decisions that he made.

    None of us are perfect, and will make the right decision every time in any situation.

    Popular opinion - Call the police, give a description of the suspect, go on with your life. That will get filed with the stuff to do on a really slow day.

    OP choice IMO correct to a point, follow and get more intel. Better description, vehicle, ect.

    Lost sight of perp, sees car backing out and steps behind it; OK, any honest citizen backing out of a space and someone yells STOP while hitting the trunk, they are going to stop "What did I just about run over, a person, a kid... The OP got the right car, dicey move on his part but the right car regardless of losing sight of the suspect.

    OK now what? The ante just got upped. Do that to a cop, plainclothes or uniform, and that is vehicular assault/attempted vehicular homicide. Do the Police hesitate to draw and fire? Yes, I know we are not police, does that mean that the classification of a deadly weapon and crime committed changes?

    The snowball effect has started rolling, and the OP and the suspect are committed to it's end pending the choices they make with every heartbeat. No time to analyze and think it through, just act & react. OODA loop I think it is called.

    And here a great many of you are, picking apart every second of his actions.

    The OP is not a cop, was not playing cop, he was doing what he thought was the right thing to do at the time.

    Personally, I would have more concern over someone stealing my wallet than my car. I know you have all heard of identity theft, and a purse/wallet is chock full of all a body needs to completely RUIN a persons life in short order, let alone a quick home robbery while the victim is at Wally World WAITING for the police to show up to make a report.
    First off, this forum is here so we can pick apart and analyze defensive scenarios. Nobody has really gotten personal or attacked the OP, as far as I can tell.

    Second, the point in this scenario where I think things took a turn for the worse was not the point where the OP decided to get involved, the point he decided to pursue the BG on foot (questionable logic, but trying to do the right thing), or even the point where he lost sight of the BG, and then tried to stop a car he thought contained the BG (logic pretty much went out the window at that point, but whatever).

    It was the point when, unable to stop the car with verbal commands, the OP ran in front of the car and displayed his weapon, that this situation ceases to be a case of a concerned citizen doing the right thing, and becomes a permit holder playing cop, IMO. Not only did that act place the life of the OP in jeapordy, but it also upped the ante tremendously.

    Also, if I'm backing out of a parking spot, and some guy runs up and starts beating on my car to get me to stop, I'm more than likely not going to....especially if it's at night, I'm in a rough part of town, and/or my son is in the car. I already know that I didn't hit anything and that nothing is behind me, because I have been watching as I'm backing up. And since I hadn't heard anyone identify themselves as a police officer, I'm definately putting some distance between myself and the person pounding on my car in order to buy time to assess the situation. Display of a weapon would be met with the appropriate response.

    I don't see how the refusal of one civilian to stop their vehicle at the command of another would be escalating the situation. The OP was only at risk because, well, he stepped in front of a moving car. I'm guessing the law in his state would not have justified the use of deadly force at that point.
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawwg View Post

    (Wargames, General Quarters drills, firefighting drills, etc.).

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    Kinda sounds like a Sailor talking...
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  9. #83
    Member Array Detroittwister's Avatar
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    I guess I can put in my 2 cents.

    I think what you did was pretty foolish, although I did a similar thing with a drive off at a gas station I jumped into the back of the thief's pickup while he was driving off stealing a tank of gas. I stopped him and he paid, but after I thought about it I realized it was stupid. No life in danger, don't get involved. We don't need to play police. I realized I have a wife and kids that need me and for me to get shot over a tank of gas it not smart.

    I am glad no one was hurt and I commend you on your heroism. Next time call the police. And stay safe.
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  10. #84
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    PackerfanXd,
    I'm sorry, I have to change my mind based on packin45's amazingly insightful post.

    What you should have done was ignore it completely. How could you be sure that the guy jimmying the door, grabbing a purse, and running away was an actual criminal. Perhaps he was Ghandi and he was trying to recover a sick nurses purse...You really have no idea what is going on in these situations and getting involved is dangerous and foolhardy. Maybe it wasn't even a purse. Maybe it was some working stiff, leaving Wal-Mart after a formula and diaper run, with his 7 month old strapped in the back. Surely you can understand how easy it is to get somebody breaking into a car and somebody on a routine shopping trip mixed up.

    You should be ashamed of yourself, and you're just lucky you didn't end up in jail for trying to be a good citizen and stand up for law abiding citizens. After all, you shouldn't have a gun in the first place. You're not a cop. Who are you to try to stop a crime in progress.

    I can't believe how I was so wrong in my original post.

    I hope you find yourself sufficiently chastised and never do this again. As a matter of fact, I can't even believe you would share this with us. You should be so ashamed of this that you would want to keep this quiet. And if you're not already, perhaps a few more posts from some of our more 'reasonable subjects' will convince you of that.
    Agree 100% except you forgot to mention the needless trauma PackerFanXD exposed the poor under privileged abused drug addict too. Imagine how much more "medicine" he will now need to heal his pain & suffering. Our wholly inadequate free health care system won't pay for his heroin or drug of choice, so he will be required to steal more purses to maintain his habit. So good deal there PackerFanXD you have caused crime to increase in your area. Unlike those who are willing to allow these poor misunderstood children of God to ply their trade unimpeded. As we all know if we try a little understanding and let these poor souls take what they want, they will never hurt anyone and in time they will find God. Usually just before sentencing or seeing the parole board. If we as a society can not tolerate allowing the under privileged to take what they want, what are all our long hours working really worth? Try to think beyond the petty needs of your family and fellow citizens.

    That said, Seriously as I just said in another post anyone coming at me with a car to do me harm gets all I have COM. IMO never draw or display your weapon unless the intent is to use it if the threat does not stop. This creep called your bluff and could have killed you. Other than that good job, thanks.

    Last point know the law in your State. In Wa it is permissible to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon or to stop a felony in progress. If you are charged Washington State is required to reimburse all all fees associated with your defense once you prove the shoot was in self defense. Again some one trying to run you over with a car is assault to reasonable people.
    Last edited by LongRider; June 18th, 2008 at 06:32 PM. Reason: change responsible people to reasonable people
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  11. #85
    Senior Member Array Packman73's Avatar
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    Thanks LR.

    I'd also like to take a second to clear up one point at least. I posted the situation right after it happened and I was trying to give the story in important bullet points. As far as the car goes, after I temporarily lost sight of the guy, I saw the guy I was chasing in the car in question. The car in question was the last car in the row.
    I did NOT just attack some random car as was alluded to in prior posts.
    I was geared up to tackle the guy or whatever but I didn't have a plan for a vehicle. In retrospect I should have just taken the plate # but in the rush of things I found it hard to give up the chase.
    BUT, if it was my wife's purse, with our address, keys to the house, CCs, and God knows what else they carry in there, I'd want it back before something possibly worse like a home robbery happened. Of cousre my wife is too smart to leave her purse in the car...
    And that's all I have to say about that.

  12. #86
    Member Array papanewguinea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakdaddy View Post
    The crime has already been committed but now you're giving chase. Your life is not threatened at this point but you will be viewed as an aggressor.
    Since when does attempting to make a citizen's arrest make you 'the aggressor' ?

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