Keeping a safe distance... what is reasonable? - Page 2

Keeping a safe distance... what is reasonable?

This is a discussion on Keeping a safe distance... what is reasonable? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Good post Cthulhu....

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Good post Cthulhu.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    But don't wear steel-toe boots. If you get into a fight with Isaac Newton, he always wins. Got the scar to prove it.

    -JT
    Work your legs more. Steel toed boot are nice to have if the other guy is even vaguely familiar with stomping; most are from being in jail/prison.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Work your legs more. Steel toed boot are nice to have if the other guy is even vaguely familiar with stomping; most are from being in jail/prison.
    Noooo thank you. I just got all the skin back on my left forearm...I think I'd like to keep it there, now. The shoulder still isn't quite right.

    Another thing to consider is that someone, or multiple people, could be running towards you, and have a blade palmed so that you can't easily see it. That could lull you into a false sense of security and while you're drawing your weapon, slicey-slicey.

    Anyone running directly towards you for no obvious reason (fire, bear, Mike Tyson 'roid-rage) can't be a good thing. Whether or not you feel threatened enough to necessitate drawing is an individual decision that can really only be decided at that particular point in time, should it occur.

    -JT

  4. #19
    Member Array CAJUN600's Avatar
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    ouch, the officier seemed a bit nonchalant right before he punched her...

  5. #20
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Default-response. Interesting way to word it. I like it. I definitely have mine. I will share, but keep in mind that even though I teach this in martial arts classes it is not for everyone and I definitely don't have it all figured out.

    With that said, let us analyze the problem. You have somebody in front of you who is upset. You may talk to this person for two seconds, or ten minutes, depending on your relationship, the cause of the argument and other factors. At any point, they could suddenly attack. But how? A right hand punch or a left hand punch? Upper cut? Kicks, tackles, grabs, head butt? Will they go for a knife? The options are limitless. Assume that this is a situation that you are trying to work it out with this person.

    If you are worried about all of these types of attacks, planing defenses, and trying to listen to what they are saying and formulate a response that will calm them down(at least for long enough for you to get away), then you will go nuts. Remember this person may or may not be displaying behavior that indicates that he will attack, but you suspect it is possible and want to be prepared. Or you may think it is coming at any second.

    This is why you see people freeze up, and why you see experienced martial artists get beaten on the streets. They never learned how to go through they whole OODA loop. The fights in martial arts class start with the word, "Go!" Both people know the rules and they are often friends. Now you are in a situation and you don't know if I fight will happen or when and what weapons if any will be employed. All of this adds up to one massive adrenalin dump. The brain is processing to much new information.

    When you have a default-response, you shorten the time it takes you to go through the OODA Loop. It is more of a conditioned response, and takes away the need to process every bit of information. It becomes more like a reflex. This shortens your DECISION time and in turn shortens your Action time.

    So what would a good default response be to being suddenly attacked. Remember if the technique can be used against a punch, kick, tackle, knife grab or whatever, then it becomes much more valuable than if it only works against a right handed hay maker.

    My answer, which has severed me well over the years is....
    Instead I will let you figure it out as I did. Look at the video again. He physically needs two things to be successful. One is distance. Which we know ideally we will not give him. But what else dose he need? What is the one thing we could do to cause that blow, or the next one to be ineffective?

  6. #21
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    No takers? No martial artists here willing to make a guess?

    It is balance. Try standing on one leg and then throwing a punch. It doesn't have much power. Neither dose throwing a kick, shoving somebody or anything else. Both feet need to be on the ground to fight. So if I anticipate taking blows, or I have already been rocked by a surprise punch, I immediately drive forward and push the attacker onto one leg. Now I have taken back control of the OODA loop. I am acting and he is Orientating himself to the fact that he is off balance, all of his Actions are to regain his balance, which means he is not thinking about hitting me again.

    I don't believe in playing defense. A good offense is the best defense, right? I could cover up for the next punch and try to back up, but then he might throw a kick, or go for a tackle. I could not defend and try and draw my gun, then take another good shot to the face. The point, is he is free to Decide how to attack me next. He can't do either of these things if I aggressively attack his balance, he can only think about defense.

    Imagine a heavy bookshelf is falling towards you. You are directly in its path, you have three options. One is to stand their and try and stop it(cover up for the next punch), this is the worst option, because you are going to take maximum weight and impact of the shelf. Option two is to get back out of the way(you can't move backwards as fast as this guy can move forward, unlike the bookshelf this guy will come after you). The third option is to move in and catch the shelf before it falls too far(put him on one leg). This is much easier than catching it when it has fallen fifty percent of the way down(punching distance). This last option is what I am recommending.

    Scenario; you are talking to somebody, they suddenly get into a fighting stance and wind back for a swing. Drive forward, push them backwards, then disengage, create distance and draw your weapon. This way they never got the punch in, they were recovering their balance, while you were creating distance and drawing

    Scenario; you are talking to somebody, they suddenly punch you in the face with a sucker punch. You are rocked but not down, instead of covering up and defending the blows that are next, you aggressively drive him backwards so that he can't effectively deliver anymore punches. You then disengage and draw your weapon while he is recovering his balance. This also works when you are suddenly attacked from behind.

    This takes a little technique and practice, but I have seen a variety of people of all shapes and sizes us it effectively, with very little training.

    Sorry for the long posts, I just can't figure out how to translate what I am trying to say in a paragraph.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    0-3 feet kill zone
    4-7 feet danger zone
    i forget the rest
    One more step and it's on!

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    LMAO... if you "drive yourself forward" into anyone that knows what they are doing... you'll find yourself soon flat on your back wondering what train hit you.
    Training is ... to use your momentum against you.... so they will go with your "push forward" and throw you flat on your back.... roll over and be ready to drive your throat or nose into the back of your head for you.....

    There's other very effective options as well...

    It's an automatic response.... if they've had enough training. It's not something that has to be thought out first.....

    If it's what I would call an "alert situation" , meaning I consider it a threat situation... they better not get closer than 15 ft from me, and will know it if they begin to cross that line.

  9. #24
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    If they know what they are doing then yes you will end up flat on your back if you go forward and you don't know what you are doing. Of course if you go backwards and they know what they are doing and you don't, then again you will end up flat on your back. There is something to be said for preparation. It works for the bad guy as well as the good guy. There is no magic pill. Just like their is no substitute for quality training and time on the range when it comes to handgun skills.

    Here is the way I look at it. Most Americans fight with their fists. And most of them learned how to fight by watching John Wayne movies. Most criminals are not trained fighters. Most of them can't even keep their car licensed, let a lone be disciplined enough to train in martial arts. Even if they received some training in the joint, it was most likely boxing. So I think that the odds are generally on your side.

    They are already showing you what they feel comfortable doing, which is striking, if they wanted to grapple with you they would have already done it most likely. So by crashing in you instantly taking them out of their game.

    Again this is a default response. Which I use when time dose not permit a lot of analysis. Think of it as Plan A. Or in SWAT terms an "hasty attack" one that you use if you had to respond to a surprise attack. If more time is allowed then consider your options and come up with a better solution"deliberate response", such as creating distance, or based on everything decide to stick with driving forward Plan B.

    A fight is not like you see in the movies. Either you are moving him or he is moving you. Google street fights and watch several of them. Often the person who simply moved forward wins every time, independent of any technique. This maybe because the person moving forward wants to fight more, and or started the fight. But the point is simply moving forward goes a long way towards winning the fight in my opinion. Your first goal is to survive the initial attack so that your weapon, if necessary can be drawn. Again my thoughts are just that. My thoughts. Oh yea don't forget to throw more blows than the other guy.

    Examples. This is most likely what it will looks like. It is not about technique in a street fight usually it is about emotions. None of these winners were doing a lot of backing up. They wanted it more than they other guy and they went in and took it. Getting to your gun may not be realistic for the first few seconds.

    YouTube - Street fight Compilation

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    Here is the way I look at it. Most Americans fight with their fists. And most of them learned how to fight by watching John Wayne movies. Most criminals are not trained fighters. Most of them can't even keep their car licensed, let a lone be disciplined enough to train in martial arts. Even if they received some training in the joint, it was most likely boxing. So I think that the odds are generally on your side.
    This was maybe true about 20 years ago. John Wayne hasn't been seen by the vast majority of violent criminals these days, who were born WAY after John Wayne passed away. They won't even know who the heck he is, much less, emulate his 'fighting style'.

    And training or not, they most likely have some sort of experience with violent encounters, likely, repeat experience, which is something many 'trained' martial artists don't have. They also usually demonstrate the willingness to do serious bodily harm to another person, with or without provocation. And generally, with the element of surprise. They're far more likely to sucker punch you than get into an actual fight. They also won't hesitate to let their 'boys' jump in to help.

    Also, most martial artists are not 'trained fighters' either. Many of them do not train with any real hard, physical contact. If they do, they train with a set of rules; otherwise, they'd run out of training partners pretty darn quick. Many also don't train for cardiovascular endurance like a 'trained fighter'.

    This is starting to stray a bit from the original post, so I'll can it.

    Also, having said all this, I've been training various martial arts for several years, currently in my sixth year of FMA training, so I'm not a non-practitioner arguing against martial arts practice.

    -JT

  11. #26
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    It has strayed off topic. However I think all of this is relevant to distance and surviving an unarmed assault. But I'm done posting on this one.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    This was maybe true about 20 years ago. John Wayne hasn't been seen by the vast majority of violent criminals these days, who were born WAY after John Wayne passed away. They won't even know who the heck he is, much less, emulate his 'fighting style'.

    And training or not, they most likely have some sort of experience with violent encounters, likely, repeat experience, which is something many 'trained' martial artists don't have. They also usually demonstrate the willingness to do serious bodily harm to another person, with or without provocation. And generally, with the element of surprise. They're far more likely to sucker punch you than get into an actual fight. They also won't hesitate to let their 'boys' jump in to help.

    Also, most martial artists are not 'trained fighters' either. Many of them do not train with any real hard, physical contact. If they do, they train with a set of rules; otherwise, they'd run out of training partners pretty darn quick. Many also don't train for cardiovascular endurance like a 'trained fighter'.

    This is starting to stray a bit from the original post, so I'll can it.

    Also, having said all this, I've been training various martial arts for several years, currently in my sixth year of FMA training, so I'm not a non-practitioner arguing against martial arts practice.

    -JT
    I agree with you, most violent criminals have a good history with unarmed and armed confrontations, and I have no experienced with either and the same is true for a large majority of good citizens, they don't have much experiences fighting... watching movies counts for nothing.

    When these scum bags end up in jail, they pump iron all day at tax payer expensive and due to the level of violence in the prison system, they get MORE barbaric... why you think they call it criminal university? So they become even BETTER at their violent ways when they go back and fourth out of the system.
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  13. #28
    Member Array braindonor's Avatar
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    as a CCW, I WOULD NOT BE DOING THIS! My job isn't to get closer to someone and try to cuff them, my job is to get away.
    And that is how cops earn their pay, the big grey area between exiting the cruiser and getting the cuffs on.

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