What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

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Thread: What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

  1. #16
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    Shoot back.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I actually thought about this today when I was at the mall and I'm thinking about going to grad school.

    I know what your supposed to do. I.E. stay put and secure location CYA and everybody else in your current location.

    However, my problem is having to live with the the myself the rest of my life knowing I might have been able to save an innocent life.
    Last edited by Rob99VMI04; June 8th, 2008 at 10:58 PM.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    ....
    I know what your supposed to do. I.E. stay put and secure location CYA and everybody else in your current location.

    However, my problem is having to live with the the rest my my self the rest of my life knowing I might have been able to save an innocent life.
    Crazy timing -- this thread.

    I was on VT campus, carrying concealed yesterday and got to thinking thinking about this very issue.

    On one hand, I am not a LEO. I have no legal duty to the crowd of strangers. The only obligation I had was to my wife, daughter, and grand-kids.

    However, like you my problem would be having to live with the the rest my my self the rest of my life knowing I might have been able to save an innocent life.

    Decided, that if the fan got hit, in that situation I be too busy trying to get my family to safety to take on the problems of the world. That lead to thinking about the time that I am there w/o them with me when....

    Hope I never have to find out what I'd do.
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  5. #19
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    I'm with Grady.

    Not because he has a gun. But because he is talking complete sense and sensibility, and has a gun.

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  6. #20
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    Take him out as fast as possible.

    Trying to coordinate with the is probably a waste of time unless you see someone else simultaneously preparing to engage the BG. At that point, a quick "I'm a good guy...me too" would probably be smart. Otherwise, you're just giving the BG more time to do his thing.

    Try to use cover as much as possible. I like Mitchell's suggestion for using your back-pack to conceal the weapon.

    Oh, and DON'T waste time trying to engage the BG in any kind of verbal exchange. He needs to get shot. If you can ambush him or shoot him in the back, so much the better. This isn't about playing captain america, this is about killing someone who is trying to kill a lot of innocent people.
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  7. #21
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    Find him and shoot him. Hunt him down, it shouldn't be hard to find him if he is still shooting. Take it too him. Save as many lives as possible. If you run out of ammo then grab a fork from the cafeteria. If there are two shooters then shoot both of them. With every bang, that is somebody else that is dead. BANG! BANG! BANG! That's three dead, you better get moving.

    Go down fighting. You might not have to go down at all. These punks are not professionals and they don't want to encounter resistance. If they wanted somebody to shoot back at them they would have started shooting at the Police Station. In most situations, when the suspects were met with resistance, they didn't even fight, they just gave up or shot themselves.

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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    Take him out as fast as possible.

    Trying to coordinate with the is probably a waste of time unless you see someone else simultaneously preparing to engage the BG. At that point, a quick "I'm a good guy...me too" would probably be smart. Otherwise, you're just giving the BG more time to do his thing.

    Try to use cover as much as possible. I like Mitchell's suggestion for using your back-pack to conceal the weapon.

    Oh, and DON'T waste time trying to engage the BG in any kind of verbal exchange. He needs to get shot. If you can ambush him or shoot him in the back, so much the better. This isn't about playing captain america, this is about killing someone who is trying to kill a lot of innocent people.
    What if this good guy goes "hunting" and there is another CCW who is also "hunting" and the one who shrouded his gun sees the other guy with a gun? What do you think is going to happen?
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  9. #23
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    Risk V'S gain. Pros and cons. What is the result of not acting. Certain death for many people. Stay concealed as long as possible. I don't think it will be hard to find the bad guy unless he stops shooting and moves. Stay somewhat concealed as long as possible. Most likely if there is another concealed carry holder he will either be hiding, running away, or running towards the sound of gunfire as well.

    This is something to consider, but too many armed citizens ready and willing to stop these incidents hasn't been a real problem. However it is something to consider. You might get a description from somebody running away. However I doubt they would stop and if you talk to them more people will be killed while you chat. I say risk it.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    What if this good guy goes "hunting" and there is another CCW who is also "hunting" and the one who shrouded his gun sees the other guy with a gun? What do you think is going to happen?
    Friendly fire is always a tragedy, but gunfights are a highly darwinian environment.

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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    What if this good guy goes "hunting" and there is another CCW who is also "hunting" and the one who shrouded his gun sees the other guy with a gun? What do you think is going to happen?
    Back before the "Disneyfication" of our American manhood some nitwit climbed a tower at the U of Texas and started shooting people. He was very good, and shot people out to several hundred meters. Police said after the fact that the single most important factor in limiting the amount of fatalities (and there were allot) was private citizens shooting back. You see all those Texans had rifles in their trucks and a bunch of them engaged the sniper pinning him down on top of the tower. He couldn't look over the rail after that. He could only look and shoot through a couple of drain spouts severly limiting his capabilities. Four men then stormed the tower 3 cops and one armed civilian thus ending the killing spree.

    It seems that all the Texans with guns didn't just start shooting each other. I think it will be easy to identify the psycho. He'll be the one killing people.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    I actually thought about this today when I was at the mall and I'm thinking about going to grad school.

    I know what your supposed to do. I.E. stay put and secure location CYA and everybody else in your current location.

    However, my problem is having to live with the the myself the rest of my life knowing I might have been able to save an innocent life.
    The question you have to ask yourself Rob is how would you feel living the rest of your life if you went hunting and took out KenpoTex or Judo Jake in the hallway and then hear more shots from inside a class room? The bad guy isn't going to have a red neon bulls eye floating on him. You encounter another armed person in a stairwell while no shots are being fired and they yell at you to drop your weapon. Do you drop the gun or drop the person? Forget about the law suit and the prison, how would you feel about accidentally shooting one of the good guys?

    For those that say dont even talk to him, you hear shots from around the corner and see a guy walking away from you shooting towards a classroom door, you drop him like a bad habit, and then out of the doorway he was shooting at you see our BG step out with his hands raised. Or you hear a shot from that doorway and see our BG flop out into the hallway with a self inflicted GSW to the head.....

    If you are willing to take that chance, that is your business. I have a wife and two kids and they kind of need our house and our bank accounts.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    What if this good guy goes "hunting" and there is another CCW who is also "hunting" and the one who shrouded his gun sees the other guy with a gun? What do you think is going to happen?
    If they see each other at the same time, the one with superior training will probably "win" (pardon my sarcasm).

    As a couple of the other guys stated, there are no guarantees...except that failure to act will result in more loss of innocent life.

    Could you get whacked by another CCW holder or by a cop? sure. Could you shoot another CCW'er by mistake? also a possibility. But if everyone cowers on the floor or runs away because they don't want to run the risk of a "blue on blue" event, the BG has free reign to do as he chooses. If you decide to get involved, being the good guy does not mean that you are going to walk away. What it means is that hopefully everyone else gets to walk away and if you're still around, it's a bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy
    It seems that all the Texans with guns didn't just start shooting each other. I think it will be easy to identify the psycho. He'll be the one killing people.
    While I see your point, let's be fair. One guy in a tower is a little different than one guy in a shopping mall or a school simply because he's not necessarily in a static position where it's obvious who the BGs and GGs are.
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  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I'm in agreement with a lot of the folks here. I'm currently in college so this crosses my mind occasionally. If I had a gun on me while on campus??

    I'm not going to bother explaining anything to anyone. That guns going to be out and ready to fire very quick. I'll be bunkered down in a classroom and I'm not leaving. Neither is anyone else. Take up a position near the door and wait. While waiting, have people on cellphones call 911 and give them our location. I don't personally care what they tell them about me. My butt isn't the one shooting people randomly. I just want the cops to know whats happening and there is someone NOT shooting who has a gun in Building ##.

    If someone wants to give me hell about violence not being the answer, I can tell them to either shut their mouth or go try negotiation. I wouldn't be terribly opposed to disabling them, either. Especially if they are loud.

    A BUG would go to an AROTC Cadet or a person I know who shoots.. but really I'm looking for anyone who isn't freaking out. Knowing my classes, Hell I'd probably toss a BUG to the professor.

    Almost none of our buildings have windows. And the ones that do, the windows are so small that you aren't getting through one unless you are a toddler. Failing any means of escape, I bunker down. I will *not* go hunting. Not on this campus - especially with how it is lain out. A LOT of students keep guns in dorms. I'll hold my position and wait for the police, thanks.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Back before the "Disneyfication" of our American manhood some nitwit climbed a tower at the U of Texas and started shooting people. He was very good, and shot people out to several hundred meters. Police said after the fact that the single most important factor in limiting the amount of fatalities (and there were allot) was private citizens shooting back. You see all those Texans had rifles in their trucks and a bunch of them engaged the sniper pinning him down on top of the tower. He couldn't look over the rail after that. He could only look and shoot through a couple of drain spouts severly limiting his capabilities. Four men then stormed the tower 3 cops and one armed civilian thus ending the killing spree.

    It seems that all the Texans with guns didn't just start shooting each other. I think it will be easy to identify the psycho. He'll be the one killing people.

    I am not talking about an already IDed perp with a known location...
    if there was a school shooting and they had several CCW (all strangers to each other in different parts of the building), do you really believe it's similar to the above mentioned case?

    In the VT massacre, no one even had an ID of the shooter and they did not know how much shooters were involved, not until he was a corpse and everything was said and done.

    In a highly stressful environment with a VERY REAL chance of multiple shooters, not having an ID on the shooter etc, walking around "hunting" sounds like a fast way to get killed (how do you even know how well armed the shooter is, especially if there is multiple shooters)...

    You could be killed either by the attacker/attackers or law enforcment (what if SWAT had a sniper looking out and saw a man with a gun walking down the halls, what do you think would happen?)

    Most people, after seeing many dead and dieing people and hearing gunshots, won't be asking the question 'are you a good guy,' if they saw a man walking around armed and a total stranger... it's more like BANG.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    The question you have to ask yourself Rob is how would you feel living the rest of your life if you went hunting and took out KenpoTex or Judo Jake in the hallway and then hear more shots from inside a class room? The bad guy isn't going to have a red neon bulls eye floating on him. You encounter another armed person in a stairwell while no shots are being fired and they yell at you to drop your weapon. Do you drop the gun or drop the person? Forget about the law suit and the prison, how would you feel about accidentally shooting one of the good guys?

    For those that say dont even talk to him, you hear shots from around the corner and see a guy walking away from you shooting towards a classroom door, you drop him like a bad habit, and then out of the doorway he was shooting at you see our BG step out with his hands raised. Or you hear a shot from that doorway and see our BG flop out into the hallway with a self inflicted GSW to the head.....

    If you are willing to take that chance, that is your business. I have a wife and two kids and they kind of need our house and our bank accounts.
    That's the same thing I was thinking... it could actually be very real for the killer to try to blend in around the victims who have not yet even seen him... the CCW "Hunting" could very well come across him and how would they know he was the 'good guy?" You really expect him to say "I am the bad guy." He could play you like a fool and when your guard is down, your brains will also be down on the floor. OR, you could have taken the life of another CCW who was trying to "hunt" too but he had his weapon unconcealed (or badly concealed) and losing their life over mistaken identity.

    Again, HOW can you ID the killer? Someone better intelligently answer that one.

    Me seeing an unknown armed person walking around the hall would bring me no comfort because I DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS, and I would not expect law enforcement to know either. In many hostage situations the perps actually pretend to be hostages when the hostage rescue teams come through and the professionals know this so they don't drop their guard on hostages (known some could be frauds.).

    A school/mall shooter could very well dispose of his weapons and run around among the fleeing crowd, trying to cover his tracks... thats why in columbine SWAT actually had these fleeing people with their hands up, and you better believe they got searched etc.
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