What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

This is a discussion on What to do in another Virginia Tech incident? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by grady I draw and get to the side of the door (close it if not closed already). I aim chest or head ...

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Thread: What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    I draw and get to the side of the door (close it if not closed already). I aim chest or head high. If door opens, I have a split second to decide if it's crazy guy or someone warning us.

    IF I have time, I may ask if anyone else is familiar with guns. If so, I MIGHT consider handing my BUG to the person. Given that it's a classroom, I might have gotten to know the other students over the course of the semester.

    If the sheep want to barricade the door, that's fine, but I won't participate. I'm preparing to shoot the shooter if he comes through the door.

    I may direct some young studs to stand behind me in order to overpower the shooter if my plan A fails. If shooter has an accomplice in the room, then I probably lose with that plan.

    If some sheep starts attacking me, I'll find out how fast a person goes down after a full punch to the throat. Then I'll resume my aim on the door.

    If I instill panic in the room by pulling a gun, xxxx 'em.

    I probably won't go hall hunting, as I might be mistaken for the BG. If carrying is legal there, other GG's with guns might take me out if they see me roaming the halls with gun drawn. I would also lose considerable tactical advantage by venturing into the hall. It may seem callous not to try to actively take out the shooter, but I'm in enough danger already. I don't need to add to it.

    Yeh, I think I draw and take position immediately. Too bad if others don't like it.
    +1 Grady....very well written....don't think I would give up my BUG, unless it was a very good friend that I trusted ALOT....
    I feel like at this point, I am now 'responsible' for the safety of that classroom...ONLY...if he comes in that room, I fight...if not I don't, and wait for LEO...
    You do have to inform the others in the room that you are carrying legally, and for them to take cover...


    I keep remembering the classroom I had in college that held over 600 students...shaped like a movie theater with two entrances, also two exits at the bottom that led to labs, and teachers offices.. this takes on a different scenario...hard to impossible to cover both, and you are at a tactical disadvantage with the layout.
    ----DOC-----

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  3. #32
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    If I'm hunting the bad guy I'm going to expect to come across some cops or perhaps other good guys. I'm also going to count on people running away from the guy thats actually shooting people. BANG.. oh he's over there on my left...BANG ok hes around this bend here....BANG...you get the picture.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Too many variables to think about EXACTLY what I'd do in a situation like VT. If it starts/begins in my immidiate vicenity, then I'm going hunting. (Easy to write/think about while sitting here at work and not IN a situation like that)
    I know it just started so I'd be on-location before ANY first responders even get the call from thier dispatchers.
    If it's something that I become aware of after the slaughter has started outside my AOR, I'm taking a defensive position and standing by if the need to fight becomes necessary.

    Otherwise, I don't have anything except my training and the "cards dealt me"
    in the situation at hand and the rest I'd make up as I go along/the situation unfolds.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Something else to keep in mind is the unintended consequence of what happens if you encounter the police before the BG is located and dealt with. If you are out hunting you are going to force them to commit a team of officers to securing you (if they don't shoot you by mistake) that could be hunting the bad guy. If this is in a small town with a small campus police force you may have just forced them to commit 50% of their on scene assets.
    I can't say for sure, but I think you are less likely to tie up assets if you are found armed in a room with 30 healthy people saying "We are ok" than wandering a body strewn hall way.
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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I can't say for sure, but I think you are less likely to tie up assets if you are found armed in a room with 30 healthy people saying "We are ok" than wandering a body strewn hall way.
    Bingo. That's exactly what I was getting at in my post. Besides, if the responding officers shoot me for whatever reason, I would be horrified if my family decided to sue the police department. No, I stand by my choice to bunker down.
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  7. #36
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    I agree w/ Grady and Phillep. I also don't give my extra gun unless I have shot with someone else and trust them with my life. A stance kneeing 10' and parallel with the door. People don't typically look down when they enter. This gives you time to assess the threat.

    Sad thing- I go to school locally at a community college and for the past semester no professor can give me an answer to what if another VT-type shooter comes on campus. I know I am carrying whether they like it or not.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company.- George Washington
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  8. #37
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Staying in a room doesn't mean that you will not be faced with another concealed carry holder. He may bust into the room to bunker down the same as you. Then you are in the same situation "blue on blue". As far as tying up law enforcement, I wouldn't worry to much about that. First of all if you act, chances are very good that it will all be over before they even get their. That is the whole point in acting, you are on scene and they are not. When they show up, you will more than likely know it, by the sirens. Besides that, several of these active shooters have effectively surrendered to the Law, so it is possible to survive even if you are the bad guy.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array sui-juris's Avatar
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    Grady in the first post covered it really well, hard to argue vs his advice.
    " Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master." George Washington

  10. #39
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Well Grady. I thank you for standing by those people who are close to you and who need protecting in the room. You and only you will have to live with the fact that you could have done more, but didn't. I'm saying that to argue, I'm just saying that while you wait at the door, you may hear twenty gunshots over the span of several minutes. Each one of those shots will most likely take somebodies life. Maybe children.

    "Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once." from the play Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare.

    I'm not calling you a coward Grady. I'm sure your not. Neither would I call your plan a cowardly plan. What I am saying is that me and you have to live with the decisions that we make. All of us need to think long and hard about what we are willing to live with. This is an ongoing thing for me, but this one for me is easy to answer. I go!

    Grady if you protect the people in the room, you have done a good thing, they and the ones that love them will thank you. And you have my respect. We need more like you. Maybe you'll get him if I don't.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    Well Grady. I thank you for standing by those people who are close to you and who need protecting in the room. You and only you will have to live with the fact that you could have done more, but didn't. I'm saying that to argue, I'm just saying that while you wait at the door, you may hear twenty gunshots over the span of several minutes. Each one of those shots will most likely take somebodies life. Maybe children.

    "Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once." from the play Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare.

    I'm not calling you a coward Grady. I'm sure your not. Neither would I call your plan a cowardly plan. What I am saying is that me and you have to live with the decisions that we make. All of us need to think long and hard about what we are willing to live with. This is an ongoing thing for me, but this one for me is easy to answer. I go!

    Grady if you protect the people in the room, you have done a good thing, they and the ones that love them will thank you. And you have my respect. We need more like you. Maybe you'll get him if I don't.
    I'm protecting my family first and foremost. My wife needs me. My young teenage daughter needs me. They need me to survive in this society and to have a roof over their heads, and food and shelter, etc. Yes, I have life insurance. Life insurance doesn't teach a young woman how to be careful in life, or what men are like, or how to take precautions against the many bad guys in life. And for reasons you will never know, my wife needs me to survive more than most women need their husbands to survive.

    I don't owe anything to people who refuse to take care of themselves, who criticize people like me for doing so, and then cry when the evil day comes as I and others have warned. In the above scenario, it's legal to carry in college. Every single person over the age of legality in that example had the opportunity to carry.

    The young ones are a different story. Many here have children in college who are too young to legally carry. I will have a child in the same situation someday, I hope. Those are the ones who do need someone to protect them.

    As I said, you do not know my circumstances, and never will. I owe my allegiance and survival to my wife and daughter. I do owe my fellow man something, but it is far, far less than what I owe my family at this point in time. I owe them me coming home at night. I owe financially preparing for their futures. I owe them many things other than what finances my life insurance would pay upon my death. I owe my daughter a father's influence, and she certainly won't get that from anyone else if I'm gone.

    You can go hunting all you want. If I was single, I might beat you to the gunman if you hesitated for a second.

    I owe much to my family, far more than to anyone else... especially to those who refused to prepare when they could have, and especially when my attempt to help, if I failed, could severely impact my own family from now on.

    If some sheep are too stupid to prepare for their own defenses, they are complicit in their own destruction.

    In the mentioned scenario, I felt the shooter was almost upon us. Yes, some might have died while I waited in ambush. Blame the politicians and those who want to disarm us. Blame the individuals who weren't carrying a weapon when they could have. Blame the parents who didn't encourage underage students to carry regardless of the laws. Blame me if you like. But at the end of the day, I intend to return to my family, hug my daughter before she goes to bed, influence her as she enters adulthood... prepare my home so my wife is safe even if I do pass away, build her things she likes, fix the fence so the neighbor's dog doesn't poop in her roses, hold her as she buries her parents, take care of her when she can't get out of bed...

    My wife needs me, and for more than just to hold when she wants. She needs me to function and survive in this society. I'll be damned if I sacrifice my life running down a hallway with no cover, which is a stupid tactical move, so I can possibly save others. I might save more if I stay in the room... perhaps our room is the next one on the list. What happens if I step out the door and get cut down immediately? Possibly everyone in the room dies... and then the next room... and then the next...

    At Virginia Tech, Professor Kevin Granata locked 20 students into his office, and then he went downstairs to investigate the shooting. He was shot and killed (granted, he was probably unarmed). He had a wife, a 13-year-old son, a 12-year-old daughter, and an 11-year-old daughter. Those children will now grow up without their father. His wife and children buried him. They can visit his grave, look at pictures of him, and talk about him... but he's gone. Forever.

    My allegiance is to my family first. My fellow man comes second, a very distant second at this time in my life.

    I walked the line when I was single. I put my life on the line for the people in this country, even for those who didn't agree with what I was doing. When Americans were being kidnapped and killed in Europe just for being Americans, sometimes being singled out on commercial flights and executed, I WAS THERE, travelling on commercial flights for the U.S. Government.

    When Kadafy was threatening to bomb NATO installations, I was at the closest NATO installation to Libya, during the very time Kadafy made those threats. The Air Force staggered the F-15's parked on the tarmac because they took Kadafy's threats seriously.

    When General Dozier was kidnapped and held hostage in Italy, I was walking the streets in the city where he was held DURING the time he was held hostage.

    I found a 1-inch rusty wire hidden in my scrambled eggs at a hotel restaurant in Panama, a wire that could have done serious damage to me had I gulped down my eggs as I normally did. How hard is it to cook scrambled eggs without having a 1-inch wire falling into them? And it was a nice hotel, not some dirty flea trap. You think that was an accident? I don't.

    I've done my time standing for those around me, for my fellow countrymen and women. And I never complained. I didn't see my family for great lengths of time, sometimes years. I did it willingly. I've had bags packed behind my door for years... world-wide mobility, no limitations. I was either overseas or on no-notice, world-wide deployment for 11 years. I would have deployed to Africa another time Kadafy made noises, but I was already deployed, living on the road for months at a time.

    All this while I was single. I put my ass on the line for years living overseas in hostile environments. I can show you pictures of a communist anti-American parade I took from my living room window. Then there was the anti-American rally at the soccer stadium a block from my apartment. That was after the winter that the shampoo on my dresser froze solid because it was so cold.

    On a different continent, on one occassion we were told to avoid the capital city. Seems an important national had been found dead in a U.S. mail bag. Or, rather they found his head in the mail bag. Unfortunately, I lived in the capital during that time so I couldn't avoid it.

    You want to talk about doing something for my fellow man? How about delaying having a family for years so I could do something for my fellow Americans? How about... I could go on and on, but then it might sound like "poor me", which I totally reject. I gladly sacrificed for others, and would do it again if I didn't have my family to take care of.

    I reject your false guilt. My conscience is clear. I owe allegience to my wife and daughter first and foremost. Then to my parents. Yeh, I haven't mentioned them. I owe them far more than what I owe to every other single student in the scenario put together. If I die, my parents suffer in more ways than one. Have you given thought of what your death would mean to your family?

    I want to see my daughter graduate high school and college. I want to take her to her CCW class. I want to help her pick out a good on-body holster. I NEED to influence her in so many ways while I still can.

    I want a lot of things for my wife, things maybe you'll understand some day as you near the end of the time you have together with your wife.

    Life is fragile. Spend all the time you can with your family, if you have one. No one is guaranteed even one more day. I see death often. Sometimes it's expected, sometimes not. Unexpected death is cruel. No good-byes, no more kind words said between spouses, no resolution of so many conversations and issues, no more shared thoughts, just no response at all, no matter how hard one pleads. Death has a finality that is cold and cruel, especially when unexpected.

    It is my utmost goal in life to live for my family. I want to outlive my wife just so she won't have the pain of burying me.

    You want to die a hero? Go ahead.

    It's my goal to live a hero for my family, and to be there when they need me.

    Maybe some day you'll understand.

    While you're young, go ahead and seek out the shooter. Make him pay. It's your time.

    I've done my time. Now it's about my family.



    Okay, JudoJake, I've reread your post and it didn't seem as harsh as I took it initially. What really got my attention was when you said
    You and only you will have to live with the fact that you could have done more, but didn't.
    and
    What I am saying is that me and you have to live with the decisions that we make. All of us need to think long and hard about what we are willing to live with.
    I totally agree. Living with the decisions we make... I learn more and more about this the longer I live. I try hard not to focus on my regrets... otherwise sometimes they would overwhelm me. Especially the times I have not made the best choices for my family. So I have resolved to do the best I can for them from here on out. As selfish as it sounds, that means seeing that I stay alive. It also means taking care of this body so they can benefit.

    I see the point of trying to save the lives of others. That is admirable. I guess I'm not seeking admiration from others, I'm seeking the well-being of my family. I cannot express to you how much they need me in order for them to have a life that isn't harsh. That sounds so self-serving and selfish, but I won't elaborate.

    I envy those who can make their points in few words. Somewhere buried in this post are my points. Maybe part of it is this: I'm not here to save the human race. Humans continually amaze me by the stupid things they (we) do. Some are unwilling to be saved or helped, and would fight all attempts at help. My narrow focus is my family, because all other options for them are not good. That is my job now, my mission, my focus, my calling, my obsession. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about my life, other than what it means to my family. And yeh, sometimes I don't care as much about my fellow humans as perhaps I should.

    If my family was gone, I would be with you as you ran to the battle. But my family trumps all for me now.

    I am not offended with your post now. I see your point. Especially with the 20 gunshots. If the shooter is continually shooting in a classroom, that's a great time for a surprise attack, all the while watching for an accomplice or for him to suddenly appear in the hallway. If you're going to go, that is a good time to go. Just watch for an accomplice.

    But please don't talk to me about having to live with my decisions. I know this lesson all too well. When I wake up in the middle of the night, and can't sleep... when I clearly remember decisions I made on other continents and in other lifetimes... yeh, I know about living or dying with decisions I've made. I don't need to be reminded of this principle.

    My goal is to make good decisions for my family now. Yes, they are my utmost priority now. If someday they are gone, then I'll take the battle to the shooter and do my best to end it quickly.

    I think I have shared too much, but I'm not going to delete it now. Sometimes typing is therapy for me. Please forgive the length. And I apologize if this post sounds self-serving.

  12. #41
    Member Array biasedbulldog's Avatar
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    Incredibly tough question, as grady and JudoJake (among others) have eloquently established.

    Short answer: I don't know. I am single and young, so I lean towards hunting the b******(s) down. But the idea of killing another CCW or cop in clothes really, really bothers me, and I don't much like the idea of getting shot by accident either.

    At this point, I lean towards hunting, but I can't really give a definitive answer. Ask me when... And when I have a family of my own to protect and care for? I won't even begin to try to answer that...
    "War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Seems to me like if you're set on the hunting route, you'd better call 911 and tell the operator what you're doing and what you look like. They'll tell you to stop, of course, and you'll tell them to tell the police who not to shoot.

    Consider that at VT the police were on top of the shooter within 5 minutes of the shooting starting. In any normal college building you'd have a hard time clearing one floor in that time, much less the whole building. Your odds of helping are slim. Your odds of shooting the wrong person are high. Your odds of getting shot by nervous police are extremely high.

    It's one thing to engage if you actually see the guy - but going out to find him just doesn't add up.

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    Your odds of shooting the wrong person are high. Your odds of getting shot by nervous police are extremely high.

    It's one thing to engage if you actually see the guy - but going out to find him just doesn't add up.
    Ditto...

    Rick

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Something you need to be aware of when calling the police on something like this is that depending on how many call takers are working, it might be a while before you get through. If you call and get a recording and hang up and call again, you just made things worse. S.O.P. in most call centers is to call back on all 9-1-1 disconnects. If they call back and get a busy signal, they then have to get a local phone company operator on the line and have them do an interrupt. That usually is two to three minutes wasted.
    Also, depending on the information given by the callers, there could be several different call screens generated by computer aided dispatch system. When you are giving your description to the call taker and telling them you are hunting the shooter, you have no way of knowing if that is going on the screen the radio dispatcher is looking at. The person giving the information to the officers might not see your description until after you have been dead for an hour. If they were able to relate and connect the duplicate calls you now have a problem with multiple call takers adding incident remarks to the same call. These remarks get added to the call as they get entered, usually with the call takers I.D. number on the line and the time the remark was entered. So you could possibly have a situation where one call taker is trying to enter a description of the bad guy at the same time the person you are talking to is putting in your description.
    I wish I had a nickle for every time I had a call screen with a desription of a
    1875 11:20:01 w/m 600/200 blu bball cap
    1710 11:20:01 red toyt pktk with mag wheels and
    1875 11:20:02 whi t shirt/ blu jeans/ boots
    1710 11:20:02 tinted windows
    etc. etc.
    now add a couple more call takers, plus all of the other stuff the dispatcher is doing. See where this can lead? I am not telling anyone not to go after the shooter, but I want you to be making an informed decision. You are going up against more than just the bad guy here, you are also going to be going up against the information overload to the police that are responding.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I'm not particularly fond of hunting somebody down with a pistol. A pistol is a defensive weapon.

    I don't think it would be terribly difficult to figure out who the active shooter is. He'll probably be the one shooting multiple directions at multiple people. If he has a rifle and he's not in uniform, then I can just about guarantee that's the guy.

    If I am in the hallway when it starts to happen, I'll return fire. Not much of a choice there. If I'm sitting in class, and I had my way, I would leave the door open about 1-2 inches, kneel down about 10-12 feet away from the door along the wall, and wait until it opens. That's probably not going to happen, so I would lock the door, ask everybody to take cover in the far corner of the room, and take a postion, again, kneeling down about 10-12 feet away from the door against the wall.

    After that, it's a waiting game.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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