What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

This is a discussion on What to do in another Virginia Tech incident? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dnowell Consider that at VT the police were on top of the shooter within 5 minutes of the shooting starting. In any ...

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Thread: What to do in another Virginia Tech incident?

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    Consider that at VT the police were on top of the shooter within 5 minutes of the shooting starting. In any normal college building you'd have a hard time clearing one floor in that time, much less the whole building. Your odds of helping are slim. Your odds of shooting the wrong person are high. Your odds of getting shot by nervous police are extremely high.

    It's one thing to engage if you actually see the guy - but going out to find him just doesn't add up.
    I totally agree with you dnowell... real life is not like the movies... man with gun walking around "hunting" makes for a reasonable target for both another armed citizen and police, considering that a huge majority of shootings have no ID on the shooter, or even the number of shooters... why would someone really believe they are exempt from being in the cross hairs?

    Just makes no sense, especially when you don't even know how much people you will be "hunting" for? What if it were 2,3,4 ? What if they had pipe bombs and hostages along with automatic weapons? Unlike the movies, they have all the advantages and the "hunter" has very little to none because not only can the killer/killers kill you, but the good guys as well... the killers don't even have that issue because they already know what to expect where as the "hunter" has no real idea on the situation.... the "hunter" really sounds like the "hunted" to me... "hunted" on both sides and I certainly won't expect SWAT, a police sniper, another armed citizen etc to distinguish.
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    I'm protecting my family first and foremost. My wife needs me. My young teenage daughter needs me. They need me to survive in this society and to have a roof over their heads, and food and shelter, etc. Yes, I have life insurance. Life insurance doesn't teach a young woman how to be careful in life, or what men are like, or how to take precautions against the many bad guys in life. And for reasons you will never know, my wife needs me to survive more than most women need their husbands to survive.

    I don't owe anything to people who refuse to take care of themselves, who criticize people like me for doing so, and then cry when the evil day comes as I and others have warned. In the above scenario, it's legal to carry in college. Every single person over the age of legality in that example had the opportunity to carry.

    The young ones are a different story. Many here have children in college who are too young to legally carry. I will have a child in the same situation someday, I hope. Those are the ones who do need someone to protect them.

    As I said, you do not know my circumstances, and never will. I owe my allegiance and survival to my wife and daughter. I do owe my fellow man something, but it is far, far less than what I owe my family at this point in time. I owe them me coming home at night. I owe financially preparing for their futures. I owe them many things other than what finances my life insurance would pay upon my death. I owe my daughter a father's influence, and she certainly won't get that from anyone else if I'm gone.

    You can go hunting all you want. If I was single, I might beat you to the gunman if you hesitated for a second.

    I owe much to my family, far more than to anyone else... especially to those who refused to prepare when they could have, and especially when my attempt to help, if I failed, could severely impact my own family from now on.

    If some sheep are too stupid to prepare for their own defenses, they are complicit in their own destruction.

    In the mentioned scenario, I felt the shooter was almost upon us. Yes, some might have died while I waited in ambush. Blame the politicians and those who want to disarm us. Blame the individuals who weren't carrying a weapon when they could have. Blame the parents who didn't encourage underage students to carry regardless of the laws. Blame me if you like. But at the end of the day, I intend to return to my family, hug my daughter before she goes to bed, influence her as she enters adulthood... prepare my home so my wife is safe even if I do pass away, build her things she likes, fix the fence so the neighbor's dog doesn't poop in her roses, hold her as she buries her parents, take care of her when she can't get out of bed...

    My wife needs me, and for more than just to hold when she wants. She needs me to function and survive in this society. I'll be damned if I sacrifice my life running down a hallway with no cover, which is a stupid tactical move, so I can possibly save others. I might save more if I stay in the room... perhaps our room is the next one on the list. What happens if I step out the door and get cut down immediately? Possibly everyone in the room dies... and then the next room... and then the next...

    At Virginia Tech, Professor Kevin Granata locked 20 students into his office, and then he went downstairs to investigate the shooting. He was shot and killed (granted, he was probably unarmed). He had a wife, a 13-year-old son, a 12-year-old daughter, and an 11-year-old daughter. Those children will now grow up without their father. His wife and children buried him. They can visit his grave, look at pictures of him, and talk about him... but he's gone. Forever.

    My allegiance is to my family first. My fellow man comes second, a very distant second at this time in my life.

    I walked the line when I was single. I put my life on the line for the people in this country, even for those who didn't agree with what I was doing. When Americans were being kidnapped and killed in Europe just for being Americans, sometimes being singled out on commercial flights and executed, I WAS THERE, travelling on commercial flights for the U.S. Government.

    When Kadafy was threatening to bomb NATO installations, I was at the closest NATO installation to Libya, during the very time Kadafy made those threats. The Air Force staggered the F-15's parked on the tarmac because they took Kadafy's threats seriously.

    When General Dozier was kidnapped and held hostage in Italy, I was walking the streets in the city where he was held DURING the time he was held hostage.

    I found a 1-inch rusty wire hidden in my scrambled eggs at a hotel restaurant in Panama, a wire that could have done serious damage to me had I gulped down my eggs as I normally did. How hard is it to cook scrambled eggs without having a 1-inch wire falling into them? And it was a nice hotel, not some dirty flea trap. You think that was an accident? I don't.

    I've done my time standing for those around me, for my fellow countrymen and women. And I never complained. I didn't see my family for great lengths of time, sometimes years. I did it willingly. I've had bags packed behind my door for years... world-wide mobility, no limitations. I was either overseas or on no-notice, world-wide deployment for 11 years. I would have deployed to Africa another time Kadafy made noises, but I was already deployed, living on the road for months at a time.

    All this while I was single. I put my ass on the line for years living overseas in hostile environments. I can show you pictures of a communist anti-American parade I took from my living room window. Then there was the anti-American rally at the soccer stadium a block from my apartment. That was after the winter that the shampoo on my dresser froze solid because it was so cold.

    On a different continent, on one occassion we were told to avoid the capital city. Seems an important national had been found dead in a U.S. mail bag. Or, rather they found his head in the mail bag. Unfortunately, I lived in the capital during that time so I couldn't avoid it.

    You want to talk about doing something for my fellow man? How about delaying having a family for years so I could do something for my fellow Americans? How about... I could go on and on, but then it might sound like "poor me", which I totally reject. I gladly sacrificed for others, and would do it again if I didn't have my family to take care of.

    I reject your false guilt. My conscience is clear. I owe allegience to my wife and daughter first and foremost. Then to my parents. Yeh, I haven't mentioned them. I owe them far more than what I owe to every other single student in the scenario put together. If I die, my parents suffer in more ways than one. Have you given thought of what your death would mean to your family?

    I want to see my daughter graduate high school and college. I want to take her to her CCW class. I want to help her pick out a good on-body holster. I NEED to influence her in so many ways while I still can.

    I want a lot of things for my wife, things maybe you'll understand some day as you near the end of the time you have together with your wife.

    Life is fragile. Spend all the time you can with your family, if you have one. No one is guaranteed even one more day. I see death often. Sometimes it's expected, sometimes not. Unexpected death is cruel. No good-byes, no more kind words said between spouses, no resolution of so many conversations and issues, no more shared thoughts, just no response at all, no matter how hard one pleads. Death has a finality that is cold and cruel, especially when unexpected.

    It is my utmost goal in life to live for my family. I want to outlive my wife just so she won't have the pain of burying me.

    You want to die a hero? Go ahead.

    It's my goal to live a hero for my family, and to be there when they need me.

    Maybe some day you'll understand.

    While you're young, go ahead and seek out the shooter. Make him pay. It's your time.

    I've done my time. Now it's about my family.



    Okay, JudoJake, I've reread your post and it didn't seem as harsh as I took it initially. What really got my attention was when you said and I totally agree. Living with the decisions we make... I learn more and more about this the longer I live. I try hard not to focus on my regrets... otherwise sometimes they would overwhelm me. Especially the times I have not made the best choices for my family. So I have resolved to do the best I can for them from here on out. As selfish as it sounds, that means seeing that I stay alive. It also means taking care of this body so they can benefit.

    I see the point of trying to save the lives of others. That is admirable. I guess I'm not seeking admiration from others, I'm seeking the well-being of my family. I cannot express to you how much they need me in order for them to have a life that isn't harsh. That sounds so self-serving and selfish, but I won't elaborate.

    I envy those who can make their points in few words. Somewhere buried in this post are my points. Maybe part of it is this: I'm not here to save the human race. Humans continually amaze me by the stupid things they (we) do. Some are unwilling to be saved or helped, and would fight all attempts at help. My narrow focus is my family, because all other options for them are not good. That is my job now, my mission, my focus, my calling, my obsession. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about my life, other than what it means to my family. And yeh, sometimes I don't care as much about my fellow humans as perhaps I should.

    If my family was gone, I would be with you as you ran to the battle. But my family trumps all for me now.

    I am not offended with your post now. I see your point. Especially with the 20 gunshots. If the shooter is continually shooting in a classroom, that's a great time for a surprise attack, all the while watching for an accomplice or for him to suddenly appear in the hallway. If you're going to go, that is a good time to go. Just watch for an accomplice.

    But please don't talk to me about having to live with my decisions. I know this lesson all too well. When I wake up in the middle of the night, and can't sleep... when I clearly remember decisions I made on other continents and in other lifetimes... yeh, I know about living or dying with decisions I've made. I don't need to be reminded of this principle.

    My goal is to make good decisions for my family now. Yes, they are my utmost priority now. If someday they are gone, then I'll take the battle to the shooter and do my best to end it quickly.

    I think I have shared too much, but I'm not going to delete it now. Sometimes typing is therapy for me. Please forgive the length. And I apologize if this post sounds self-serving.
    I think people have a lot to live for even if they were single (like myself), the very clear reason why I won't not "hunt" is because I DON'T KNOW the situation I would be facing... it's not like a movie you have seen, it's not like a book read a 1000 times already.

    Your very right, you could step out the door and be literally shot to pieces, you could have multiple gunmen with high powered rifles around the area, and how can be you anything for the people in the room you just left IF YOU'RE DEAD? Staying in a secured location and being ready for a possible confrontation IS MORE ADVANTAGEOUS than wandering off into the unknown.

    It's true IMHO, such a death could actually be less progressive and when SWAT comes rolling in with the big guns, I hardly would think if they came across the "hunter" they would think he's being helpful, more of a hindrance... a very deadly threat in their minds, those guys WON'T be taking chances because they want to go home alive.

    IMHO, leave the movie crap on HBO... take a look on the bank of America robbery (imagine a terrorist cell in this country putting together something like this at a university) YouTube - Bank robbers (North Hollywood California)

    2 heavily armed gunmen with heavy body armor vs an army of cops armed only with pistols and shotguns, if it were not for the police borrowing the assault rifles from the local gunshops, things could have been much worst... Anyone who would leave a secured location into something they have no idea about is suicidal... a sensible person should expect THE WORST, especially when you have not seen the shooter/shooters and having no knowledge on how well they are armed.

    The beginning of this post said nothing on the observer seeing the # of shooters or the weapons they used.
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  4. #48
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    I'm in agreement with a lot of the folks here. I'm currently in college so this crosses my mind occasionally. If I had a gun on me while on campus??

    I'm not going to bother explaining anything to anyone. That guns going to be out and ready to fire very quick. I'll be bunkered down in a classroom and I'm not leaving. Neither is anyone else. Take up a position near the door and wait. While waiting, have people on cellphones call 911 and give them our location. I don't personally care what they tell them about me. My butt isn't the one shooting people randomly. I just want the cops to know whats happening and there is someone NOT shooting who has a gun in Building ##.

    If someone wants to give me hell about violence not being the answer, I can tell them to either shut their mouth or go try negotiation. I wouldn't be terribly opposed to disabling them, either. Especially if they are loud.

    A BUG would go to an AROTC Cadet or a person I know who shoots.. but really I'm looking for anyone who isn't freaking out. Knowing my classes, Hell I'd probably toss a BUG to the professor.

    Almost none of our buildings have windows. And the ones that do, the windows are so small that you aren't getting through one unless you are a toddler. Failing any means of escape, I bunker down. I will *not* go hunting. Not on this campus - especially with how it is lain out. A LOT of students keep guns in dorms. I'll hold my position and wait for the police, thanks.
    Great post! I forgot about the cell phones but they would be very important.

    'm not going hunting either. I'm doing what I've been trained to do in a home invasion. Stay covered although I'm not yelling anything like "Go away, I have a gun!" These are mass murderers not home invaders. Mass murderers have been known to carry explosives (like at Columbine).
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    Great post! I forgot about the cell phones but they would be very important.

    'm not going hunting either. I'm doing what I've been trained to do in a home invasion. Stay covered although I'm not yelling anything like "Go away, I have a gun!" These are mass murderers not home invaders. Mass murderers have been known to carry explosives (like at Columbine).
    You're right, they come well prepared and several of them have used high powered rifles, they came well armed... one day you will hear about them having on body armor too (which is easer to get than a gun since you can order it online.)'

    High powered rifles, body armor, multiple killers/shooters, unknown positions, explosives? Even the police (SWAT) would not suicidally go into a situation like this without assessing it first!
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Even if I/one weren't armed, there are several things which must be done. This is a very simple outline and things in these kinds of situations are fluid.

    Stop for a few seconds and THINK!
    Don't panic, find some cover (or at least concealment). Where is the fire coming from? Which direction is it heading? Can you see the gunman? What weapons does it sound like s/he/they using?

    Put together a quick plan. A few seconds of planning is a heck of a lot better than rushing head-on into a hail of gunfire. A fair fight means you didn't do a good job of planning. Don't try to be a hero- heroes usually end up dead.
    Can cover be used to my advantage?

    Act on the plan. I/one have/has the element of surprise. The last thing these scum expect is someone to fight back.
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  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    It might also be worth stating that if you draw a gun and leave the room - assuming you survive - you could be in the worst kind of legal hot water that you might imagine. Once you leave that room, there is NO ONE to say that you didn't shoot anyone. You can scream about taking a polygraph or your gun being clean/unfired all you want. There is no one except you to say that you left that room to go 'hunt the baddie' and while that sounds honorable to some, a federal or state prosecutor might laugh at you and charge you as a conspirator. Think about that.

    The point is, if you clear leather in a situation like this, you are introducing another gun into an already explosive situation. You WANT 15-80 people saying that you never fired a shot, threatened anyone, or pointed your firearm at a single soul except for the guy who might have come through that door. Remember that.. Once you leave the sight of other people.. you have nothing to prove you didn't do anything wrong. And holding up your CWP in the air, screaming about being a goodguy won't matter for anything. You are guilty until proven innocent.

    Leaving your initial position is a giant gamble where you need to be SURE you find and kill the shooter(s?) BEFORE the police get there. And even then, what are the witnesses going to say? Someone they don't recognize came into the room where the baddie was shooting and they shot the baddie. Okay.. Who are you? Maybe you were with him from the start and had planned to come running when you heard shots only to change your mind?? You NEVER know what a survivor/witness will tell a DA or police officer. Sure you might have saved a bunch of lives, but now you might be charged in a mass homicide which you tried to stop.

    Is it paranoid or cowardly to think like this? Maybe. I'm not too concerned about what others think. Truth be told, I probably won't know how I'll react unless it goes down right in front of me. But the point is that people who want to go and look for the shooter(s?) need to realize what they MAY face.

    I won't even touch on the legal ramifications of someone getting into a firefight in a school building - well intentioned or not!
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Don't forget the Beslan school incident in Russia, multiple terrorists with rifles/hostage situation/boobie traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    On one hand, I am not a LEO. I have no legal duty to the crowd of strangers.
    Neither do they.

    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    Bingo. That's exactly what I was getting at in my post. Besides, if the responding officers shoot me for whatever reason, I would be horrified if my family decided to sue the police department. No, I stand by my choice to bunker down.
    Better put that in a letter marked, "To be opened by my family after my death!"

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  9. #53
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Don't forget the Beslan school incident in Russia, multiple terrorists with rifles/hostage situation/boobie traps.
    How much children died that day? I can't remember but it was a lot... this is exactly what I mean, to many people assume that a school shooting could just be one maniac with a gun but it could be a well planed terrorist attack.
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    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Grady. Good post. It sounds like you have thought long and hard about what you would do and are prepared to deal with it. Believe me any comment from me was not meant to be insulting. Some haven't put as much thought into is as you have. When you know what you are about and prepare before hand, you are much less likely to question your judgment later.

    I too have a family, two four year old twin boys and a one year old girl. I love them very much and I am the sole breadwinner. But still I would go.

    Do I love my wife and kids? Do I want to be around to protect them and provide for them? Yes. That is why I do everything to make sure that I can win when I go after the B####. Years and years of various martial arts training, SWAT training, weight lifting, running, exercising, reading and even going to Defensive Carry.com to learn from you all.

    Here is where we differ. The degree of love for humanity, as you mentioned; You don't feel the need to protect them as much as you do to protect yourself. I don't think that way. I can not stand by, while others suffer and I when I can do something to stop it, even at the cost of personal loss of life. Even at the cost of my family going on in life without me. I try and I think really do, to a degree, "Love my neighbor as myself."

    I'm not trying to be critical. Again, we need more like you. You do have my respect for your service and the actions that you would take in the future. I understand your point of view. It is well thought out, smart and practical. I'm not saying it is smart or the safest thing to go hunting. I'm just saying that, that is what I would do.

    I wish I could have been at Virgina Tech or Columbine. I hope that when the next incident like this happens that I am their to stop it. It is not about being a hero. It is about love.

    P.S. I am not trying to claim any moral superiority. But I am sharing my hart and giving you a no BS reason as to why I would go hunting.

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    I think it's still a question of what you can live with after the fact. I saved a guy once from drowning in a storm swelled river. As I watched him sweeping down stream calling for help (he was a friend) I knew there was a good chance I might not survive the attempt. Two friends with me were shouting "Don't go!". I went anyhow. I got lucky. I saved him. I don't think I could have lived with myself watching my friend die without even trying. I feel the same way about hunting the BG. I go.
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  12. #56
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post

    I wish I could have been at Virgina Tech or Columbine. I hope that when the next incident like this happens that I am their to stop it.
    It would be better to wish that there was never another VT type massacre... as far as wishes are concerned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think it's still a question of what you can live with after the fact. I saved a guy once from drowning in a storm swelled river. As I watched him sweeping down stream calling for help (he was a friend) I knew there was a good chance I might not survive the attempt. Two friends with me were shouting "Don't go!". I went anyhow. I got lucky. I saved him. I don't think I could have lived with myself watching my friend die without even trying. I feel the same way about hunting the BG. I go.
    Another unreasonable comparison... with the friend, you could swim (I would assume you could swim) and you KNEW the situation... and I have yet to hear one possible "hunter" to tell me how they would know the situation, everyone keeps assuming it's only one killer where there could be many, everyone keeps assuming that it could not be a terrorist attack (though it has happened overseas), everyone keeps assuming that they are armed only with pistols (though many were armed with high powered rifles that could gut you even with what little cover you could have), everyone keeps assuming that they don't have body armor (though it could be purchased online easily) etc. I would make no assumptions, especially in a deadly situation as a school massacre.
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    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Two attackers with AK47's killing people. I have my Glock 27 to stop them. Can I win that one. You bet. How many Police officers have even been wounded, much less killed in these active shooter cases. I don't know of any.
    These dirt bags are cowards, they prove it by attacking people who can't fight back. They kill as many as they can until they are attacked, then they are shot, give up, run or shoot themselves. Numbers and guns aren't everything. It's partly about the software that you have programed in your head, not necessarily about the hardware in your hand. These punks learned how to fight playing video games. It is within my ability to take them all out.
    Even if I just get one, or they use up their bullets trying to shoot at me, that is time and bullets that they will not get back. Because if I can't kill them, then I will buy up time until the Calvary shows up. It is a lot harder for these dirt bags to hit their target when it is shooting back and not just laying their begging for it's life. If I'm hunting them, they are going to have to focus on me and that means they most likely aren't hunting other people. All that is necessary for bad men to win is for good men to do nothing!

    Even if I can slow them down for a minute, before I run out of ammo, or get killed, and I don't hit any of them. That is one more minute that people had to get out. I'll try and quote Lt. Grossman; One man in the first few minutes with a gun is worth three SWAT Teams and a Navy Seal squad in fifteen minutes. You can't put these people back to gather again. Again, this is my mindset, based on what I am willing to do and my training. This is not a right decision for everyone. I think I can win.

    It is possible that terrorists will take over a school or some other structure? Yes, but it will not look or sound the same as an active shooter. This is another topic, but the terrorist are not interested in killing everyone right away, they want to do that after the media has time to show up and set up their cameras. There might be some initial shooting, but it will be preceded or proceeded by loud verbal commands and be more of a takeover than an kill them all right away situation.

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    How much children died that day? I can't remember but it was a lot... this is exactly what I mean, to many people assume that a school shooting could just be one maniac with a gun but it could be a well planed terrorist attack.
    Over a hundred IIRC. I saw a Russian documentary filmed during the Speznatz assault to take back the building, it's too depressing to dig up and post here, lots of dead children, lots of crying, lots of anger.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  16. #60
    Ex Member Array Daniella's Avatar
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    Its late but after reading all the posts, having some more coffee and looking out the window while thinking about it..

    To me it comes down to two things- legal matters or not;
    1) Could I live with my self if i knew I could have stopped the gunman from killing that many people

    VS

    2) Could I live with my self if I with an accident killed another CCW?

    The chances of being killed by another CCW goes under number two. Being killed by a police officer..well most likely it would be over by the time they show up.

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