What if you saw an armed man making threats while in an argument with people outside?

What if you saw an armed man making threats while in an argument with people outside?

This is a discussion on What if you saw an armed man making threats while in an argument with people outside? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I remember almost 2 years ago in Maryland, when real late at night there was some sort of argument, right outside the townhouse... one of ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    What if you saw an armed man making threats while in an argument with people outside?

    I remember almost 2 years ago in Maryland, when real late at night there was some sort of argument, right outside the townhouse... one of the guys had a large knife in his hand, and he was arguing with one lady and another guy... I don't know what the situation was about but I called 911 and found out that many people had reported it. Though I had my .45 that time, I had no carry permit (Maryland not being a "shall issue" state) and felt that I would be out of my legal boundaries if I got involved even if I did something that would be ethically correct.

    What scared me is if that guy started to stab both of these people, there would be nothing that I could do legally... and I told my mother after that night that my greatest fear was to watch people being severely hurt or killed when all I could do is watch.

    What would you have done if you saw this happening right outside your place of residence, seeing a man with a large knife in a heated argument with a lady and another man next to her (knowing you have a carry permit, making it legal to go armed outside of the house)?

    This reminds me, watch this video (especially part 2), what do you think of laws that prevent legally armed people for preventing a possible murder? This is about a man who was forced, legally to do nothing as several children next door were being stabbed to death by a mad man.

    YouTube - Mary Carpenter In Her Own Words Pt 1

    YouTube - Mary Carpenter In Her Own Words Pt 2
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    What would you have done if you saw this happening right outside your place of residence, seeing a man with a large knife in a heated argument with a lady and another man next to her (knowing you have a carry permit, making it legal to go armed outside of the house)?
    Be a good witness, but not get involved. Could be a love triangle, could be one spouse cheating on another, could be a guy with a knife defending himself against a threat I can't see. Bottom line, I don't know and I'm not going to engage. I'm finding a safe place to observe, call 911, and be a good witness.

  3. #3
    Member Array detroit9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Be a good witness, but not get involved. Could be a love triangle, could be one spouse cheating on another, could be a guy with a knife defending himself against a threat I can't see. Bottom line, I don't know and I'm not going to engage. I'm finding a safe place to observe, call 911, and be a good witness.
    I second this. You know nothing about what is really going on.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    I call it Darwin calling the faithful. It would have to be exceedingly unusual circumstances for me to bother.

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    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post

    Though I had my .45 that time, I had no carry permit (Maryland not being a "shall issue" state) and felt that I would be out of my legal boundaries if I got involved even if I did something that would be ethically correct.

    What scared me is if that guy started to stab both of these people, there would be nothing that I could do legally... and I told my mother after that night that my greatest fear was to watch people being severely hurt or killed when all I could do is watch.

    In this case, I agree with call 911, observe, and be a good witness....

    Now, having said that, not having a ccw wouldn't normally preclude someone from defending themselves or someone else against a deadly assault. Carrying a weapon is different than witnessing a felony assault and arming yourself to try to stop it. Generally speaking, both would be covered by completely different statutes. I'd be surprised if MD would not allow someone witnessing a violent, felony assault immediately outside their home to arm themselves and aid the victim.

    Now again, at what point you consider actually becoming involved in the situation is up to your own judgement and the exact circumstances of the moment.

    My .02

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    What if you saw an armed man making threats while in an argument with people outside?
    Getting into the middle of a fight with junkyard dogs can easily lead to getting badly hurt.

    Often, such fights stay "junkyard" style. There's nothing bad about two folks taking swings at one another, per se.

    Trouble comes when one or more is armed to the teeth, or a participant has homeys out the wazoo watching his back, or there are other players in the mix and you can't tell who's who.

    Either way, a disturbance of this nature that's escalating, particularly one that's turning seriously violent, has "911" written all over it. Call and witness.

    The moment, however, an active attempted murder is taking place, that's where things change gears. Decide to intervene or not, as you see fit. Consider what your state's laws allow, if you see fit. Call it being a good sam in defense of life, or being Captain America, or simply being an arbiter of junkyard dog fights gone awry. The choice is now yours as to whether to get involved.

    The thing is, unless you're aware of what the altercation is, it may not be simple to determine the GG from the BG. The BG isn't strictly going to be the one using a deadly weapon to "defend" him/herself.

    So. Decide.

    If it were me? If I didn't know these folks from Adam, didn't know the alteration's parameters or who was the GG/BG? I'd immediately call 911 and monitor. If I did know one or more of the folks, or if I absolutely knew I was witnessing an attempted murder right in front of me, then I likely would get involved to stop a clear attempt at murder.

    Still, each situation's different. Outside my home or known area is one thing. Down in the gang-banger end of town, the likelihood of BG #1 having a host of homeys ready to "watch his 6" is very high (ie, the "junkyard" type fight). And, whatever else is true, I'm not about to call 911, and while the inbound cavalry is coming decide to intervene and thus place myself squarely in the sights of the cavalry. That's suicide and does nobody any good. Had 911 been called, I very likely would announce the inbound officers, to see if that alone could break up the attack. If it were a junkyard brawl, they might well simply take it elsewhere; if an attack against a GG, it might well terminate at that point. Depends on the situation.
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  7. #7
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    Maybe I should run out and show my CCW Badge and my Ranger Rick Decoder Ring?

    In actuality, I would choose only to be a good witness, call 911 (stay on the phone) and relay the on-going action. One would have no way of knowing who the 'players' are...so, stay away!OMO
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    could be a guy with a knife defending himself against a threat I can't see.
    If this were true, could he not just remove himself from that situation? The other man had no weapon in his hand, same for the women, so I never would have thought the man with the knife was "defending himself." He was also making threats against both of them while he had his hand on the knife.

    On the other hand, I don't see why the other 2 people could not just walk away, if someone was arguing with me and had a knife in their hand, I won't not be standing around, moving away seems to be the only logical thing to do.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    Now, having said that, not having a ccw wouldn't normally preclude someone from defending themselves or someone else against a deadly assault. Carrying a weapon is different than witnessing a felony assault and arming yourself to try to stop it. Generally speaking, both would be covered by completely different statutes. I'd be surprised if MD would not allow someone witnessing a violent, felony assault immediately outside their home to arm themselves and aid the victim.

    My .02
    All I remember thinking was that the guy with the knife was making threats and I was bracing myself for witnessing a possibly murder or attempted murder.

    It's like in DC, rifles and shotguns must be kept unusable with ammo locked up but what if the burglar was kicking down the door and the resident armed themselves AFTER making the weapon usable, that looks like they had to break a law in order to protect themselves and they may have placed themselves at the complete mercy of the DA (which may be a complete anti gun nutter.)
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    What would you have done if you saw this happening right outside your place of residence, seeing a man with a large knife in a heated argument with a lady and another man next to her (knowing you have a carry permit, making it legal to go armed outside of the house)?
    I'd have the police on cell phone with a bluetooth, a mini-14 in my hand with a mag full of 55 grain FMJ and until something happened, I'd be a good wittness and shut my mouth.

    This isn't my problem.

    This is THEIR problem.

    This isn't a sudden criminal assault; this is a brewing confrontation between people who can withdraw if they please at any time.

    That makes it a situation in which I'm not keen on getting involved.

    Who is the good guy? Who is the bad guy? IS their a good or bad guy, or is the entire situation "baby momma drama" between ex-baby daddy and current baby daddy...

    Regardless...Not my problem unless they try to force their way into my house...and then they are ALL hostile.

  11. #11
    New Member Array truckin77's Avatar
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    It blows my mind that several comments have been made to "not get involved". This is what's wrong with this country. If you witness an individual stabbing at someone else, and the victim is screaming for help and bleeding, you would do nothing? Who cares why he is stabbing the victim(s)? If the woman was his wife and he caught her cheating that makes it ok for him to kill her? Maybe a drug deal gone wrong? So let the dealer slaughter two individuals while you sit on your a-- doing nothing?
    It should not matter how a person lives their life, they are entitled to it. I believe if you can save a life by intervening then you should have the courage to do so. That's what a sheepdog is bred to do. IMHO.

  12. #12
    Member Array AZ Heat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Be a good witness, but not get involved. Could be a love triangle, could be one spouse cheating on another, could be a guy with a knife defending himself against a threat I can't see. Bottom line, I don't know and I'm not going to engage. I'm finding a safe place to observe, call 911, and be a good witness.
    I agree. Be a good witness. I have heard of a case like this where a person got involved and shot a guy. Didn't kill him though. The lady that the CCW guy was thinking he was protecting ended up siding with the punk that got shot and the CCW guy was screwed. It was an abusive relationship. In these types of relationships, the person being abused quite often sides with the person doing the abuse...don't ask me why.

    Be a good witness. But if the guy turns on you, that changes the game.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckin77 View Post
    It blows my mind that several comments have been made to "not get involved". This is what's wrong with this country. If you witness an individual stabbing at someone else, and the victim is screaming for help and bleeding, you would do nothing? Who cares why he is stabbing the victim(s)? If the woman was his wife and he caught her cheating that makes it ok for him to kill her? Maybe a drug deal gone wrong? So let the dealer slaughter two individuals while you sit on your a-- doing nothing?
    It should not matter how a person lives their life, they are entitled to it. I believe if you can save a life by intervening then you should have the courage to do so. That's what a sheepdog is bred to do. IMHO.
    Unfortunately, it's a screwed up society. If you don't know them, it could cost you a long time in prison for attempted murder/murder. That being said, if the actual stabbing had started, I'd yell for him to stop with a gun drawn on him. If he didn't stop, I'd probably shoot. But if he was just standing there yelling with a knife, call 911 and watch from a distance.

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckin77 View Post
    It blows my mind that several comments have been made to "not get involved". This is what's wrong with this country. If you witness an individual stabbing at someone else, and the victim is screaming for help and bleeding, you would do nothing? Who cares why he is stabbing the victim(s)? If the woman was his wife and he caught her cheating that makes it ok for him to kill her? Maybe a drug deal gone wrong? So let the dealer slaughter two individuals while you sit on your a-- doing nothing?
    It should not matter how a person lives their life, they are entitled to it. I believe if you can save a life by intervening then you should have the courage to do so. That's what a sheepdog is bred to do. IMHO.
    As a sheepdog, it depends on who is your flock...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Heat View Post
    The lady that the CCW guy was thinking he was protecting ended up siding with the punk that got shot and the CCW guy was screwed.
    I've known this to happen with LEOs.

    Luck for them, they have authority and resources backing them, which a CHP holder doesn't have where his intervention to go bad.
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