approached in the parking lot today... - Page 3

approached in the parking lot today...

This is a discussion on approached in the parking lot today... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Eagleks Are you JOKING...... you've never been approached by the homeless or others in the parking lots for a cigarette.. a light ...

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Thread: approached in the parking lot today...

  1. #31
    Member Array p230's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Are you JOKING...... you've never been approached by the homeless or others in the parking lots for a cigarette.. a light ... a couple of bucks ?? Happens all of the time.

    Depends on where you live. The city I live in has a population of right around 200,000. I have lived here almost 11 years and have only had that happen once. I have been asked for money from people sitting on a bench at the front of a store a few more times but only once has someone tried to come up to me near my vehicle. So it may depend on what is "normal" for your location.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    If you feel threatened enough to pull a gun then you better be reporting the incident to the police,as you would essentially be in fear for your life if you pull a gun,if you pull a gun just because you don't like the way somebody looks at you or something he says that is not an overt threat you will probably not enjoy the outcome and should keep a lawyer on retainer,in CCW classes they should be teaching you "verbal"Judo where you raise your voice if you feel threatened tell the perp to stay away you don't feel safe etc. if he then continues to advance then draw and call the cops.Also Never get in your car and just sit there after getting in your vehicle lock the doors and leave you can balance your checkbook etc. at home
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    The guy was making demands, reaching into his pocket, and approaching closer than 20 feet... Seems potentially life-threatening.
    ... ignoring demands to back off, communicating with a seemingly demanding "or what?" threat.

    None of us can say what the body language, verbal tone/aggressiveness and eyes were "saying" at that moment, as none were there but the O.P. Let alone the simple fact that the incoming person flatly ignored the warnings and, after saying "or what?," deliberately kept coming.

    In the O.P.'s estimation, given all of the above, the totality amounted to: threat, justifiable enough to notify the inbound threat that further continuation of the threat will be taken absolutely seriously. The law supports this.

    Data Point: Had a similar situation myself, a few years back. Two guys were moving in tandem, one coming at me across the parking lot, and the other swinging around my right to the "blind spot." The guy in front of me asked to "bum a smoke," to which I replied I didn't have any. Combined, the resulting response, his change in body language, the obvious "focus" on me, the fact that he glanced a couple times over at his buddy who was by this time converging on my ~4 o'clock position ... all of this told me that I had about 5 seconds before being mugged by two assailants. I immediately drew my firearm and directed the lead assailant that he rethink his options. The two of them immediately disappeared into the shadows, instantly confirming the fact that they were acting in concert and had felonious violence as their goal, at my expense. The totality of the signals I received were concrete and extremely clear to me, at the time. They could not possibly have been misconstrued for anything else. I was a target and had only seconds to go before being attacked, two-on-one. I refused. The law supports this.

    Was this similar to the O.P.'s situation? Dunno. I wasn't there. But, having been through this before, it sure sounds like he thought so. Who else is to say, since all of the specific factors have not been discussed, yet? Who, indeed.

    IMO, if and only if the O.P. had nefarious deeds at heart and sought to criminally intimidate someone would he be guilty of anything. This is the heart of any "brandishing" laws, of which Pennsylvania has none (that I know of).
    Last edited by ccw9mm; July 6th, 2008 at 09:33 PM. Reason: spellin'
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Sounds like a threat to me, especially with his "Or what?", him jamming his hand in his pocket, and his continual advancement in opposition to your commands. You already told him you didn't have any smokes. What'd he expect you to do, crap a new pack of Winstons? I'd say he was clearly up to no good.

    If you had time to drive away, then perhaps you were brandishing. If he was too close for you to get away, I believe you did the right thing. Probably would have been a good idea to call the police afterwards, but the important thing is that you didn't let him get close enough to harm you.

    My days of trusting my future to the mood or intentions of an unknown person are over, especially one who has shown the aggressiveness of this guy. You commanded him to stay away--he didn't. He became aggressive by saying, "Or what?" He jammed his hand into his pocket and continued advancing. Darn right that's aggression, especially in the middle of the night, and in a public parking lot where robberies are not uncommon.

    The only other thing I might have done differently, if the guy was getting real close, is that I might have aimed at his face or his chest in preparation for a shot. I'm not going to let some guy slice me or shoot me before I determine he's too close. I do believe I can articulate that to the police, and any evidence (security cameras, witnesses, the fact that I'm just out shopping and this guy confronted me while I was in my vehicle trying to leave and go home) will likely be in my favor.

    Yes, I'm willing to take that chance rather than take the chance that the guy just wants to have a friendly chat with a total stranger in the middle of the night.

    You were running out of time to act, and you did what you had to do to keep him away from you. You weren't injured. You lived. You are not in jail. Good job.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    here, it could have ended you up in jail for brandishing a weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    What you typed is admisiion to Disorderly Conduct (misdemeanor), Brandishment of a Deadly Weapon (misdemeanor) and if he felt threatened, Aggravated Assault (felony) here.:
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    You can "articulate" all you want, but the OP would be doing it from a jail cell here
    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I too think she could be arrested for brandishing
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    if you pulled and brandished a gun, you would be in jail. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    If you feel threatened enough to pull a gun then you better be reporting the incident to the police,as you would essentially be in fear for your life if you pull a gun,if you pull a gun just because you don't like the way somebody looks at you or something he says that is not an overt threat you will probably not enjoy the outcome and should keep a lawyer on retainer,in CCW classes they should be teaching you "verbal"Judo where you raise your voice if you feel threatened tell the perp to stay away you don't feel safe etc. if he then continues to advance then draw and call the cops.Also Never get in your car and just sit there after getting in your vehicle lock the doors and leave you can balance your checkbook etc. at home

    With all due respect, everyone should realize that the law in your state does not apply nationwide.

    Pennsylvania has no "brandishing law". The OP never stated that he pointed his pistol at anyone. Displaying a firearm to discourage an attack is not a crime here.

    We don't have mandatory "CCW classes" here either.

  6. #36
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    Just my opinion,
    But after the first request for a smoke is denied, someone who wants a smoke is going to go ask someone else, the continued requests and moving forward after the first request would probably make me think it was something else as well.

    Not being there, I think the OP did what he feels he had to.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  7. #37
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    Pressing his luck, refusing to stay back. Pulling the weapon definitely required but I don't know if it was necessary yet to display, that would depend on the situation. If the BG had good intentions he would have given up after the first denial and obeyed the warning. For him to say "or you'll do what?" is a confirmation that he was pressing his luck to see what he could get.

    I am not a smoker and I don't know what makes people able to spot smokers, but if anyone pestered me for a smoke I would tell them to go take a hike (or something to that effect).

    The OP did not mention whether he was a smoker and if he had in fact lit up so that the offender could see that.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array luvmyglock's Avatar
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    I would join the argument, but all I have to say is that there is NO law on when the gun may come out of the holster. There ARE laws that tell you when you can allow someone else to see it, and there ARE laws regarding when you can shoot somebody. If I want to have the jump in such a situation I might take it out, but keep in concealed (i.e. in hand, behind leg). There is NOTHING illegal about that!
    EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    jahwarrior72:

    You did good, IMO. You believed you were being overtly threatened. You had several clues to support that judgment, based on the behavior, words and mannerisms of the person, combined with the time of day, the fact you were alone in parking lot in an area known for robberies and assaults.

    You're shaking and queasy? You're wondering whether you did the right things? You're second-guessing? Welcome to the strange world of assaults and attacks. It is what it is.

    Doesn't mean you necessarily got it right this time, though by your description it seems so. You made a couple of (acknowledged) errors, sure, but keep this in mind: (a) you're still standing and are able to go home to your family; and (b) nobody was actually harmed. That's the whole point of the exercise.

    Glad you made it safely.

    Be aware. Keep your wits. Remain armed. Always.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...es-merged.html

    These 2 yutes started off asking for a smoke, then gunned down the victims. One of the yutes pulled a gun, said he started firing when he saw victim number one reach for a weapon.

    Did this victim overreact?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    My ain't it easy to arm chair quarter in the comfort of our home. Without anything on the line but than we don't have the advantage of feeling all our alarms going off like the OP did.
    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    "or what?" he laughed, putting a hand in his pocket.
    emphasis mine What part of that do people not understand. Think anyone would have to be pretty sheltered not to see an overt threat for what it is. As ccw9mm said it situationally dependent obviously the OPs gut had the hairs on his neck standing one end.

    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    i had drawn my gun from its holster when he asked the second question. now, i held it against the steering wheel, where he could see it. i told him, in french, to get away from my van, and that i wasn't going to tell him again.
    Had I not just ignored him to start with, gotten in my car and driven away. I may very well have done the same thing, once it had escalated to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    an elderly security guard (unarmed) for the store came over, and asked if i was okay. i said "sure," then left.
    Obviously an unbiased observer saw who the bad guy was. That says alot too about the scenario. The perp did not have gun pointed at him, he was not threatened he was given an answer to his stupid question. The OP was not waving around the gun threatening anyone as the security guard can verify. There was no brandishing or assault as some seem to assume. A thug got put in check or at the very least a nimrod was taught some manners. Either way he got to go home to rethink his interpersonal skills with the reminder no one owes him anything not even a cigarette. IMO no harm no foul everyone went home good call good result
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  12. #42
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Not so. Not hardly. You're telling me that if I call in 2 seconds later, I'm a perpetrator, merely because of timing? Malarky. If you can substantiate that opinion with a statute, then we'll have something to discuss. (I'm not speaking of probabilities of being hauled in to explain. I'm speaking of a statute that dictates that the second caller becomes a perp. Doesn't exist.)

    I'll grant that the first one on base gets the first call, but it doesn't change the facts of the threat. It merely makes it harder to get a word in edgewise. Have been there, as second reporter. It ain't pretty. But it hardly makes one guilty of a crime for stopping the crime of the real perp.
    I think we are both smart enough to know that the first one to call and report a crime is not always the victim, but it sure can "muddy up the waters" if you are slow in reporting your actions.

    As far as the "crime of the real perp," I have to ask, what crime? Maybe Panhandling is illegal in your locality, but not mine. It sucks because a Panhandling charge would be an easy way to run the transients out of the city, but the granola eating ferrets, (liberals), wouldn't allow it.

    Sorry, but we can play "what if" games all night and it still doesn't change the fact that there was no means or opportunity on the part of the person you call the "real perp". The "real perp" may have had a gun in his pocket, I do, but until it gets pulled out, it's just a hand in a pocket.

    Most likely, and in my expirience, the "real perp" was up to no good and went in search of an easier victim after seeing the gun, but you don't know the person's intent and it could've just been aggressive panhandling.

    Life's a crap game and you roll your dice and hope you don't come up Snake Eyes. The OP almost did come up Snake Eyes if that had happened here.

    Biker

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well, I disagree with many of you here. I have worked in the system and carried a gun and dealt with many violent people. I've seen all types of situations, and I'm sure some of you have as well. I'm no youngster, nor am I niave by any means.

    No, I don't take every homeless person as being benign. But, I don't assume someone approaching me in a parking lot is instantly a BG either. I'm not that paranoid of the human race, yet..... even after all the dead bodies I"ve seen.

    His "or what ? " .... just communicated that he may have felt he was being threatened by you...... any witnesses, may have testified to that as well, to make your situation even worse.

    But, I don't over-react, nor do I escalate the situation. Calmness in some situations, and being assertive and to the "point" works at others and letting them know you don't take any crap either... can both work in the right situations. Leaving.... also works. The 'gun' , should be the last resort.

    HERE... the guy approaching them did not make any overt threat.... ... and you pull and display a gun.... you would have found yourself in deep trouble with the laws. Showing a weapon and/or displaying it in an initimidating or threatening manner .. gets a trip to jail and charges. And, they consider pulling and displaying the gun... an indirect threat and brandishing. Plus, I don't think it's wise to be pulling a gun just because a situation or person makes you feel uncomfortable, or because you are on alert.

    Being cautious, being prepared, being ready, having your hand on your gun ... is all OK in my mind. Even having it next to you with your hand on it. But, the instant you display it, use to to warn off someone... it's a whole new ball game.

    Think of it this way.... I'm a CCH, I approach you to ask directions... afterall I"m lost and never been in your city, and on top of this I'm frustrated I'm lost and don't have a light for my cigarette ....... and you pull a gun out and display it.... want to guess where my hand is going to be ?? I won't consider you a friendly any longer.

    I don't pull one personally, unless I'm planning on firing it ... rather immediately. I may rest my hand on it, but I won't pull it. If I pull it.... they'll think SHTF. I think some people are too paranoid, and pull their guns in situations they shouldn't, and way tooooooooo quick for my comfort zone.... because they are "uncomfortable". Guns aren't to make you feel comfortable.... they are to protect your life, if ... and when... you need it. And not until then.

  14. #44
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Well, I disagree with many of you here. I have worked in the system and carried a gun and dealt with many violent people. I've seen all types of situations, and I'm sure some of you have as well. I'm no youngster, nor am I niave by any means.

    No, I don't take every homeless person as being benign. But, I don't assume someone approaching me in a parking lot is instantly a BG either. I'm not that paranoid of the human race, yet..... even after all the dead bodies I"ve seen.

    His "or what ? " .... just communicated that he may have felt he was being threatened by you...... any witnesses, may have testified to that as well, to make your situation even worse.

    But, I don't over-react, nor do I escalate the situation. Calmness in some situations, and being assertive and to the "point" works at others and letting them know you don't take any crap either... can both work in the right situations. Leaving.... also works. The 'gun' , should be the last resort.

    HERE... the guy approaching them did not make any overt threat.... ... and you pull and display a gun.... you would have found yourself in deep trouble with the laws. Showing a weapon and/or displaying it in an initimidating or threatening manner .. gets a trip to jail and charges. And, they consider pulling and displaying the gun... an indirect threat and brandishing. Plus, I don't think it's wise to be pulling a gun just because a situation or person makes you feel uncomfortable, or because you are on alert.

    Being cautious, being prepared, being ready, having your hand on your gun ... is all OK in my mind. Even having it next to you with your hand on it. But, the instant you display it, use to to warn off someone... it's a whole new ball game.

    Think of it this way.... I'm a CCH, I approach you to ask directions... afterall I"m lost and never been in your city, and on top of this I'm frustrated I'm lost and don't have a light for my cigarette ....... and you pull a gun out and display it.... want to guess where my hand is going to be ?? I won't consider you a friendly any longer.

    I don't pull one personally, unless I'm planning on firing it ... rather immediately. I may rest my hand on it, but I won't pull it. If I pull it.... they'll think SHTF. I think some people are too paranoid, and pull their guns in situations they shouldn't, and way tooooooooo quick for my comfort zone.... because they are "uncomfortable". Guns aren't to make you feel comfortable.... they are to protect your life, if ... and when... you need it. And not until then.

    Amen Bro'.

    Take care and stay safe.

    Biker

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Well, I disagree with many of you here. I have worked in the system and carried a gun and dealt with many violent people. I've seen all types of situations, and I'm sure some of you have as well. I'm no youngster, nor am I niave by any means.

    No, I don't take every homeless person as being benign. But, I don't assume someone approaching me in a parking lot is instantly a BG either. I'm not that paranoid of the human race, yet..... even after all the dead bodies I"ve seen.

    His "or what ? " .... just communicated that he may have felt he was being threatened by you...... any witnesses, may have testified to that as well, to make your situation even worse.

    But, I don't over-react, nor do I escalate the situation. Calmness in some situations, and being assertive and to the "point" works at others and letting them know you don't take any crap either... can both work in the right situations. Leaving.... also works. The 'gun' , should be the last resort.

    HERE... the guy approaching them did not make any overt threat.... ... and you pull and display a gun.... you would have found yourself in deep trouble with the laws. Showing a weapon and/or displaying it in an initimidating or threatening manner .. gets a trip to jail and charges. And, they consider pulling and displaying the gun... an indirect threat and brandishing. Plus, I don't think it's wise to be pulling a gun just because a situation or person makes you feel uncomfortable, or because you are on alert.

    Being cautious, being prepared, being ready, having your hand on your gun ... is all OK in my mind. Even having it next to you with your hand on it. But, the instant you display it, use to to warn off someone... it's a whole new ball game.

    Think of it this way.... I'm a CCH, I approach you to ask directions... afterall I"m lost and never been in your city, and on top of this I'm frustrated I'm lost and don't have a light for my cigarette ....... and you pull a gun out and display it.... want to guess where my hand is going to be ?? I won't consider you a friendly any longer.

    I don't pull one personally, unless I'm planning on firing it ... rather immediately. I may rest my hand on it, but I won't pull it. If I pull it.... they'll think SHTF. I think some people are too paranoid, and pull their guns in situations they shouldn't, and way tooooooooo quick for my comfort zone.... because they are "uncomfortable". Guns aren't to make you feel comfortable.... they are to protect your life, if ... and when... you need it. And not until then.
    Yep like I said if you're gonna be pulling your gun everytime somebody approaches you or you get a bad feeling better have a lawyer on retainer and speed dial,also you get charged and convicted and you can kiss your concealed permit goodbye
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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