approached in the parking lot today...
This is a discussion on approached in the parking lot today... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First, glad you are ok and it turned out good.
Like most posts, having not been there another person cannot know exactly what another goes ...
July 7th, 2008 03:16 AM
First, glad you are ok and it turned out good.
Like most posts, having not been there another person cannot know exactly what another goes though.
Command voice would be key here, it seems. Telling someone to "Stay away from me" or any derivation of, is an expression that should tell someone to...stay way and that you mean it. Two times, they are just asking for it.
IMHO it wasn't time to show the gun. Drawn it and had it ready, yes.
The old lines "got a smoke?, got a light?, got the time?, can I get a ride to x?, hey, your tires are flat? etc, all have the potential of being intro lines of an interview to draw you into dropping your guard and to put you into a distracted position. They may try to use it to close distance and distance is life.
It's been mentioned that a license holder asking the same question may have reacted to your action.
IMHO, I would NEVER ask something like that without making it so abundantly clear that I had no ill intent.
My case in point. I had to ask for some jumper cables in recent memory. I was in my workplace parking lot. I work nights. I approached someone I did not know and said "I know that I don't know you, but I need some jumper cables for my car. I completely understand if you cannot help me" I stayed 20+ feet away. I had my hands out to my sides and away from my pockets. They came to me, at that point I showed them my work badge and it was all good. As a CCW holder ourselves, we have to be aware of what another thinks/feels as well and be considerate of that.
I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop. I'm glad you are safe after that.
"I no longer list firearms I own as a signature. Why give them another list to use when they come to get them?"
July 7th, 2008 04:35 AM
I always find it interesting that all of us say "Trust your instincts" and talk about spidey sense and how critical it is, how ignoring that can get you killed.....
...yet we can be very quick to assume from very bare-bones narratives the nature of a "confrontation" we didn't participate in. If instincts are, in fact, something like your brain adding up a number of factors that hasn't yet or won't at all reach the conscious level, then I think it's completely unreasonable to expect someone to be able to reproduce all those subtle threat factors in an internet post. Meaning, if that instinct is subconscious to begin with, how can you expect someone to reproduce adequately those aspects of the situation?
Given that impossibility, I suggest a very hefty benefit of a doubt for all those in such situations.
Again, think about the situation. You tell the guy no twice. Tell him to back off with strong language... at that point, he's been denied twice and been told that he should get out of dodge. This guy absolutely knows he's not getting a cigarette off you. And his response is to keep coming, say "or what?" and put his hand in his pocket.
I agree that the OP probably would have been better not revealing his handgun yet. All the same, assume BG has a pistol in the pocket. The speed at which you can go from pistol-in-hand-in-the-lap is probably roughly equal to the time it takes BG to take that pistol out of his pocket. I'm not sure I like those odds much.
And while I think you should do what you can to prevent legal entanglements outside of threat situations, I also think those legal entanglements ought to be a far far far distant second to your concern for your safety when you are actually IN a threatened situation.
"War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams
July 7th, 2008 12:45 PM
Well said, biasedbulldog. The dude kept coming after several warnings and tried to be a tough guy with his "or what?". The OP didn't point his gun at the guy, he simply made it visible. That ended the encounter. I think the only thing I would have done differently is chat up the security guard a little more. Tell him exactly what happened so I'd at least have someone to back up my version if it came to it.
July 7th, 2008 12:47 PM
Yeah it does happen all the time. But it don't hurt to be a bit cautious
Originally Posted by Eagleks
Mixed Martial Arts Record= 2-0.......Kyokushin Karate Record=5-0USMC.....helping enemies of America die for their countries since 1775
July 7th, 2008 03:09 PM
Gosh, this is the best discussion of this type of situation I've ever read. No 'flames' here, just each persons honest opinions; all of which have merit.
IMHO, I think the OP was about to get mugged. The 'would be' perp:
- 'would be' perp wouldn't take "No" for an answer
- 'would be' perp kept advancing despite OP's warnings
- 'would be' prep's "Or what?" reply
- 'would be' perp reaches into pocket
No doubt at all that the 'would be' perp initiated the this encounter. Each one of the above, subsequent actions, taken by the 'would be' perp, escalated the situation to a higher level, edging ever closer to the justification of the use of physical force and, depending on what comes out of the 'would be' perp's pocket, lethal force.
I, myself would have had my gun out but hidden from view as I started my car and tried to leave. I don't know if I would have revealed it until the moment I had to use it.
The OP described the situation pretty well but you just don't know until it's actually you in that position.
I do think the OP should have called the police.
At least one state, Arizona, has, or may soon have, a law enabling a 'would be' victim to 'brandish' a gun in situations like these.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
July 12th, 2008 07:53 PM
I posted this back in March in response to another thread...similar situation. Given the outcome, I'd say you did well.
I recently had an encounter at the local gas station while armed. About 5 a.m. I pulled in to the station to fill up. While waiting for the gas to pump, an old car pulled up to the front of the store. This guy gets out and starts walking toward me...by this time I'm yellow ready to go red. He gets within 30 feet and says "hey man, I lost my wallet and need some money." I turned to protect my strong hand and thrust out my weak hand while yelling "STOP! DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!" He froze in place with this surprised, quizical look on his face. Within two seconds he turned and walked away while mumbling something about "hey man, stay cool...I just need some money for a phone call."
I'm really glad he didn't produce a weapon and threaten me.
July 12th, 2008 09:05 PM
Live and learn. Only you were there and know ALL the incidentals. I personally have found in the past that your gut feeling is almost always right!
July 12th, 2008 09:35 PM
Only thing I'm going to say is... During confrontations, I tend to avoid using profanity or "speaking french"! Not needed to show toughness and in my experience helps to challenge the perp into further aggression.
Profanity tends to be an escalation tool rather than a deescalation tool.
We all know where it goes when the person with the gun is seen as being the one who escalates the situation.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 12th, 2008 09:36 PM
Regretably our Govenor vetoed the bill. I felt it was a good bill and hope we can rid ourselves of a bad Govenor and resubmitt the bill.
Originally Posted by KenInColo
I support the OP's moves. We should not be required to retreat from threats although that might be the "Easy Way". If the perp is within 21 feet he is definitely within the danger zone. Trying to start a vehicle which has a key slot on the right side while holding a gun in the right hand is difficult to say the least. Moving it to the left while starting the car could get you killed.
Watching the mirror while backing out of a parking spot doesn't put one in a very good position to prevent an attack from someone within 21 feet either. Of course you could back up while keeping an eye on the perp and perhaps miss all other vehicles in the process.
If we always retreat the BG's will simply feel stronger.
I did not obtain a CCW permit so I could always run away nor did any of you.
I do not want to draw or use my weapon defensively but am prepared to do so if warranted. I will determine if or when it is time to draw based on my assesment of the situation as it develops as did the OP in this thread. That is the only thing any of us can do.
I also say good job.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson
July 13th, 2008 03:39 PM
I agree leaving the scene as fast as possible would have been the best move.
What about saying to the perp "I've got a gun, dont make me use it" while your hand is on your pistol but clearly out of the perps view?
"An armed society is a polite society"
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