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approached in the parking lot today...

6K views 54 replies 37 participants last post by  PocketRocket 
#1 ·
...just an hour ago. i needed to buy a few things for my daughter's birthday party tomorrow afternoon: cake mix, napkins, and candy. i bought my stuff, and went out to my van. i got in my van, and started to look at my receipt. a guy i noticed earlier in the store saw me as i saw him; he changed direction and walked towards my van. i nodded to him, acknowledging that i'd seen him. he stopped about 20 feet from my van, and asked if i could spare a cigarette. i said no. he looked at me, then said "you ain't got a cigarette?" i repeated myself, then added that i quit last month.

he looked at me, then grinned. "c'mon, man. you ain't got a smoke?" he started walking towards me again, at which time i told him, pretty frenchly, to stop, and stay away from my van.

"or what?" he laughed, putting a hand in his pocket. i had drawn my gun from its holster when he asked the second question. now, i held it
against the steering wheel, where he could see it. i told him, in french, to get away from my van, and that i wasn't going to tell him again.

he took his hand from his pocket, holding a set of keys. "sorry, man, uhhh...sorry. i'm sorry.." he walked backwards for about 10 feet, then turned and took off. an elderly security guard (unarmed) for the store came over, and asked if i was okay. i said "sure," then left.

my stomach is still queasy. i know i made a few mistakes, like not starting the car as soon as i got in it. also, i think i should have had store security call the police, but i was tired, and just wanted to get home. good night, everyone.
 
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#2 ·
sorry... to me sounds like over-reaction, and unless you have a life threatening situation... the gun should never have come out. I'm afraid here, it could have ended you up in jail for brandishing a weapon.
 
#35 ·
here, it could have ended you up in jail for brandishing a weapon.
What you typed is admisiion to Disorderly Conduct (misdemeanor), Brandishment of a Deadly Weapon (misdemeanor) and if he felt threatened, Aggravated Assault (felony) here.:
You can "articulate" all you want, but the OP would be doing it from a jail cell here
I too think she could be arrested for brandishing
if you pulled and brandished a gun, you would be in jail. Period.
If you feel threatened enough to pull a gun then you better be reporting the incident to the police,as you would essentially be in fear for your life if you pull a gun,if you pull a gun just because you don't like the way somebody looks at you or something he says that is not an overt threat you will probably not enjoy the outcome and should keep a lawyer on retainer,in CCW classes they should be teaching you "verbal"Judo where you raise your voice if you feel threatened tell the perp to stay away you don't feel safe etc. if he then continues to advance then draw and call the cops.Also Never get in your car and just sit there after getting in your vehicle lock the doors and leave you can balance your checkbook etc. at home

With all due respect, everyone should realize that the law in your state does not apply nationwide.

Pennsylvania has no "brandishing law". The OP never stated that he pointed his pistol at anyone. Displaying a firearm to discourage an attack is not a crime here.

We don't have mandatory "CCW classes" here either.
 
#3 ·
as far as I can see, you did well, nobody got hurt and you keeped your cool,altho here in texas that is branising a weapon.:comeandgetsome:





i
 
#4 ·
I JUST listened to a podcast on parking lot safety. People just don't approach you like that without bad intentions. Me thinks he was trying to rob you. Should you have drawn your weapon? Hmmmm. Hard to say. HE put his hand in his pocket first. He probably had a weapon AND his car keys there. Did it work out for the best? I think so. You probably should have called the police. But you and he both went home and nobody was hurt. Calm down. Take a couple of deep breaths and be thankful that it worked out OK.
 
#5 ·
Are you JOKING...... you've never been approached by the homeless or others in the parking lots for a cigarette.. a light ... a couple of bucks ?? Happens all of the time.
 
#7 ·
Most of us have. Complacency is what gets GG's killed. I don't think I would have shown my weapon. It would have been drawn and ready (with the engine running and the vehicle in gear) but I wasn't there. I know my awareness has been heighted since carrying and while I expect to be approached "by the homeless or others," it won't be a casual conversation.
 
#6 ·
Brush up on your verbal skills and confrontational avoidance tactics is my suggestion. What you typed is admisiion to Disorderly Conduct (misdemeanor), Brandishment of a Deadly Weapon (misdemeanor) and if he felt threatened, Aggravated Assault (felony) here.

The last one is a bit of a "stretch" but you would get charged with it to give the prosecutor some "bargaining power".

Biker :palmier:
 
#14 ·
"i got (in my van), and started to look at my receipt. a guy i noticed earlier in the store saw me as i saw him; he changed direction and walked towards my van."-jahwarrior72

Again, I'm not there, so no judgement made on my part. But, IF you began to feel 'iffy', why not start the van and drive off?

Dan
 
#17 ·
i was in a pretty tight spot, literally. whoever designed the parking lot didn't figure on vans parking in it, it seems. it took me at least a minute to pull into a spot, it would've taken too long to get out. that's more than enough time to have a window smashed.

i talked about it with my g/f this morning. she watches the news more than i do; she said she's not surprised, a couple of people have been held up at knife point there this year. this supermarket is located in what you'd call a good neighborhood, as well. like alot of boroughs here, it's a "one cop town."

I too think she could be arrested for brandishing but glad it turned out in her favor. But it is an intersting point though...what to do if you were not in the van/car and a homeless person looking for a handout comes walking towards you and when you warn them, they just laugh and keep coming.

Rick

he, and his!:wave:
 
#15 ·
I too think she could be arrested for brandishing but glad it turned out in her favor. But it is an intersting point though...what to do if you were not in the van/car and a homeless person looking for a handout comes walking towards you and when you warn them, they just laugh and keep coming.

Rick
 
#16 ·
"what to do if you were not in the van/car and a homeless person looking for a handout comes walking towards you and when you warn them, they just laugh and keep coming." - bandit383


That wasnt the situation posted by the OP. Therefore, different answeres/tactics/'what ifs'.
In a vehicle, doors locked, windows up, it would, at least to me, seem the logical answere to put it in gear and leave. That van has waaaaaay more 'ballistic potential' than any pistol out there, if indeed it is needed. But just pulling away from the threat seems the most favorable, and desirable outcome.

Dan
 
#18 ·
I think you seriously erred in not reporting the incident to the police.

As a general rule, if you draw your firearm, there should be a report made.

Otherwise, you're open to someone filing a complaint against you.

Matt
 
#23 ·
Of course I wasn't there....but you were definitely being interviewed for a victim position (I'm sure you didn't want the job). Probably need to be more situationally aware...as soon as you declined the interview, started the car and left. Depending on the distance, I probably would not have shown my weapon. I'm sure you felt your life was in danger

However, the guy probably thought you could not defend yourself--and that was a mistake.....hopefully he will re-think his position and make different choices.

The only other thing I think you should have done is call the police on the non-emergency number and told them what happened. Remember, the first one to call is the victim...the last one is the defendant.
 
#24 ·
Personally, fleeing if available is preferrable. Cover is second. Shooting is the last ditch defense. BUT, you may have saved his life. Had you not let him know you were armed and dangerous, he may have brandished his own weapon and you would have been forced to shoot him. I probably would have told him, "Back away, now!" while keeping the weapon out of sight.
 
#25 ·
What would have put me on high alert is the fact that he kept pressing the issue.

Someone genuinely looking for a smoke, asks for one and when someone says, "Don't have any," they move on to the next person. If they keep coming closer and insisting then they become a threat.

I've never been approached by anyone in a parking lot before. I have, however, approached people in parking lots.. Believe it or not I was asking for a ladder..lol.. LONG story.

I'm not sure exactly what I would have done but I certainly would have been on alert because of the guy. Like I said, no one insists on pestering someone who has already turned them down unless they really want to go away with SOMETHING.
 
#27 ·
What would have put me on high alert is the fact that he kept pressing the issue.

Someone genuinely looking for a smoke, asks for one and when someone says, "Don't have any," they move on to the next person. If they keep coming closer and insisting then they become a threat.
Yup. Pretty simple. Aggressive panhandling is just that, but with the emphasis on aggressive.
 
#28 ·
MY point... is yes, someone approaching for a cigarette, might be a bad guy. However, as described.... he was doing nothing that was a threat as such, and here.... if you pulled and brandished a gun, you would be in jail. Period.

But I would be watching his hands, be on alert, and letting him know rather adamantly to back off if I didn't like the situation.

Have I ever met a guy hitting me up for a cigarette or couple bucks turn belligerent or ... get near what I would call a robbery attempt... YES. But , 1 out of 200 or more.

But, I was never pulling out my gun and brandishing it at them. That's considered a threat, and that's going to get a bad name for us all if people start doing that stuff, particularly when there is no obvious threat. By pulling the gun, you just became the threat because the guy had not made any threats, no actions that could be construed as one, and had not shown or displayed any weapons. Sorry folks, do that here... you'll be in jail, loose your license, and never be allowed to buy a firearm of any kind again... and may well lose every gun you do own.

It doesn't mean... they couldn't have the gun handy on the seat next to them, and/or their hand on it, doors locked, and warned them to back off LOUDLY (gaining attention to the situation) ..... and to drive off... and hope he's out of the way before they accidentally run them over.
 
#30 ·
he stopped about 20 feet from my van, and asked if i could spare a cigarette. i said no. he looked at me, then said "you ain't got a cigarette?" i repeated myself, then added that i quit last month.

he looked at me, then grinned. "c'mon, man. you ain't got a smoke?" he started walking towards me again, at which time i told him, pretty frenchly, to stop, and stay away from my van.

"or what?" he laughed, putting a hand in his pocket.
sorry... to me sounds like over-reaction, and unless you have a life threatening situation... the gun should never have come out. I'm afraid here, it could have ended you up in jail for brandishing a weapon.
The guy was making demands, reaching into his pocket, and approaching closer than 20 feet... Seems potentially life-threatening.

Several replies in this thread charged jahwarrior72 with brandishing. Presuming that the incident occurred in Pennsylvania (jahwarrior72's location), does the word "brandish" appear in the PA statutes? I searched an online PA Code of Statutes and couldn't find it, but maybe I missed something.
 
#33 · (Edited)
The guy was making demands, reaching into his pocket, and approaching closer than 20 feet... Seems potentially life-threatening.
... ignoring demands to back off, communicating with a seemingly demanding "or what?" threat.

None of us can say what the body language, verbal tone/aggressiveness and eyes were "saying" at that moment, as none were there but the O.P. Let alone the simple fact that the incoming person flatly ignored the warnings and, after saying "or what?," deliberately kept coming.

In the O.P.'s estimation, given all of the above, the totality amounted to: threat, justifiable enough to notify the inbound threat that further continuation of the threat will be taken absolutely seriously. The law supports this.

Data Point: Had a similar situation myself, a few years back. Two guys were moving in tandem, one coming at me across the parking lot, and the other swinging around my right to the "blind spot." The guy in front of me asked to "bum a smoke," to which I replied I didn't have any. Combined, the resulting response, his change in body language, the obvious "focus" on me, the fact that he glanced a couple times over at his buddy who was by this time converging on my ~4 o'clock position ... all of this told me that I had about 5 seconds before being mugged by two assailants. I immediately drew my firearm and directed the lead assailant that he rethink his options. The two of them immediately disappeared into the shadows, instantly confirming the fact that they were acting in concert and had felonious violence as their goal, at my expense. The totality of the signals I received were concrete and extremely clear to me, at the time. They could not possibly have been misconstrued for anything else. I was a target and had only seconds to go before being attacked, two-on-one. I refused. The law supports this.

Was this similar to the O.P.'s situation? Dunno. I wasn't there. But, having been through this before, it sure sounds like he thought so. Who else is to say, since all of the specific factors have not been discussed, yet? Who, indeed.

IMO, if and only if the O.P. had nefarious deeds at heart and sought to criminally intimidate someone would he be guilty of anything. This is the heart of any "brandishing" laws, of which Pennsylvania has none (that I know of).
 
#32 ·
If you feel threatened enough to pull a gun then you better be reporting the incident to the police,as you would essentially be in fear for your life if you pull a gun,if you pull a gun just because you don't like the way somebody looks at you or something he says that is not an overt threat you will probably not enjoy the outcome and should keep a lawyer on retainer,in CCW classes they should be teaching you "verbal"Judo where you raise your voice if you feel threatened tell the perp to stay away you don't feel safe etc. if he then continues to advance then draw and call the cops.Also Never get in your car and just sit there after getting in your vehicle lock the doors and leave you can balance your checkbook etc. at home
 
#34 ·
Sounds like a threat to me, especially with his "Or what?", him jamming his hand in his pocket, and his continual advancement in opposition to your commands. You already told him you didn't have any smokes. What'd he expect you to do, crap a new pack of Winstons? I'd say he was clearly up to no good.

If you had time to drive away, then perhaps you were brandishing. If he was too close for you to get away, I believe you did the right thing. Probably would have been a good idea to call the police afterwards, but the important thing is that you didn't let him get close enough to harm you.

My days of trusting my future to the mood or intentions of an unknown person are over, especially one who has shown the aggressiveness of this guy. You commanded him to stay away--he didn't. He became aggressive by saying, "Or what?" He jammed his hand into his pocket and continued advancing. Darn right that's aggression, especially in the middle of the night, and in a public parking lot where robberies are not uncommon.

The only other thing I might have done differently, if the guy was getting real close, is that I might have aimed at his face or his chest in preparation for a shot. I'm not going to let some guy slice me or shoot me before I determine he's too close. I do believe I can articulate that to the police, and any evidence (security cameras, witnesses, the fact that I'm just out shopping and this guy confronted me while I was in my vehicle trying to leave and go home) will likely be in my favor.

Yes, I'm willing to take that chance rather than take the chance that the guy just wants to have a friendly chat with a total stranger in the middle of the night.

You were running out of time to act, and you did what you had to do to keep him away from you. You weren't injured. You lived. You are not in jail. Good job.
 
#36 ·
Just my opinion,
But after the first request for a smoke is denied, someone who wants a smoke is going to go ask someone else, the continued requests and moving forward after the first request would probably make me think it was something else as well.

Not being there, I think the OP did what he feels he had to.
 
#37 ·
Pressing his luck, refusing to stay back. Pulling the weapon definitely required but I don't know if it was necessary yet to display, that would depend on the situation. If the BG had good intentions he would have given up after the first denial and obeyed the warning. For him to say "or you'll do what?" is a confirmation that he was pressing his luck to see what he could get.

I am not a smoker and I don't know what makes people able to spot smokers, but if anyone pestered me for a smoke I would tell them to go take a hike (or something to that effect).

The OP did not mention whether he was a smoker and if he had in fact lit up so that the offender could see that.
 
#38 ·
I would join the argument, but all I have to say is that there is NO law on when the gun may come out of the holster. There ARE laws that tell you when you can allow someone else to see it, and there ARE laws regarding when you can shoot somebody. If I want to have the jump in such a situation I might take it out, but keep in concealed (i.e. in hand, behind leg). There is NOTHING illegal about that!
 
#39 ·
jahwarrior72:

You did good, IMO. You believed you were being overtly threatened. You had several clues to support that judgment, based on the behavior, words and mannerisms of the person, combined with the time of day, the fact you were alone in parking lot in an area known for robberies and assaults.

You're shaking and queasy? You're wondering whether you did the right things? You're second-guessing? Welcome to the strange world of assaults and attacks. It is what it is.

Doesn't mean you necessarily got it right this time, though by your description it seems so. You made a couple of (acknowledged) errors, sure, but keep this in mind: (a) you're still standing and are able to go home to your family; and (b) nobody was actually harmed. That's the whole point of the exercise.

Glad you made it safely.

Be aware. Keep your wits. Remain armed. Always.
 
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