Motor vehicle aggression
This is a discussion on Motor vehicle aggression within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Names modified to keep it hyopthetical. :)
Two folks I know (GG1 and GG2) took some old heavy furniture to the dump to get rid ...
November 16th, 2005 03:22 PM
Motor vehicle aggression
Names modified to keep it hyopthetical. :)
Two folks I know (GG1 and GG2) took some old heavy furniture to the dump to get rid of it. Due to its heavy nature, they pulled up as close as possible to the transfer pit to unload it -- head in parking. SBG (s for suspected) pulls up behind them, close to their bumper to unload his own items. Unfortunately this doesn't leave GG1 room to unload his stuff. GG1 asks SBG if he could back up so GGs 1 and 2 could get the stuff out their vehicle. SBG tells GG1 to pull forward instead. GG1 responds tells him the items they're moving are very heavy and that's why he parked where he did. They look at each other for a minute, then the SBG gets in his car to back up. SBG first puts it in drive and goes forward, ostensibly intentionally, coming very close to pinning GG1's legs between the vehicles. GG2 is a witness throughout.
GG1 doesn't carry, so put yourself in GG2's shoes. What would you have done? In particular, 1) how would you excercise your duty to retreat in that situation? Could you, given the immediate nature of a vehicle coming toward you? 2) A car is proven as a deadly force aggression; would it have been justifiable to shoot?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments.
November 16th, 2005 03:46 PM
No justification to shoot. PERIOD. Could have been an accident. This kind of thing happens everyday. It's even part of a commercial for T-Mobile. Kid means to put the car in reverse, looks to the rear so he can back up and goes forward thru the garage door.
Given the distance, I'd probably throw myself on the hood of the oncoming car and make sure my 245+ pounds left a nice dent. Quid pro quo.
Again, both cars were parked and already very close, by this account. Not much time to move and even less time to draw. In fact, by the time you do draw, the danger will be past....one way or another. So your buddy is cut in half between the two vehicles. Do you kill the driver of the other car for revenge? Of course not. Do you shoot him to prevent him from killing somebody else...maybe yourself? If you're in a safe area to start with, I don't see how you can make a case for an imminent threat to anybody.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
November 16th, 2005 03:54 PM
Sad to say maybe - being the ancient cynic I am - I imagine from the get go I'd have felt leary of this SBG - and not have trusted him at all.
That said I (as GG1) would have probably stayed in some clear position in case and made mental plans for any actual confrontation. Certainly not left self vulnerable.
Here tho, imagining now as being GG2 observing and carrying - very hard indeed to say - because there is little time to decide whether the apparent upcoming leg pinning is gonna happen, or is just an intimidatory act. As we so often have to say - not there to see it unfold and have other minutiae available to add to the decision-making process. Some of that too might even be ''gut feeling".
On balance I would not see this as a good shoot at all if bullets flew - but much might depend on available witness evidence after the event - IF it had gone bad. It could of course be construed as a severe if not lethal threat - but hard to see that passing muster in a court.
All I see clearly here is avoidance being necessary - cannot think much beyond, unless SBG presented a weapon in which case everything is much simplified.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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November 16th, 2005 03:56 PM
doesn't sound like reason to draw. Unless there is immediate threat to person (persons) and intentions are clear.
November 16th, 2005 03:57 PM
People sure act like a holes.
I'm in South Florida though and we have more than our share, we are the bottom of the toilet here.
November 16th, 2005 04:21 PM
I like the idea of jumping on the hood.
let him call on you for denting his hood if he wants to and let the cops sort it out.
i would hope i would not let one of my buds be smashed without some kind of action. drawing, hood jump, something.
i think if ya had time to think some action woulda been possible but it sounds liek it happened too fast.
i think cops may frown on drawing but if it happened it happened.
fast response training....hhhmmmmm
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
November 16th, 2005 04:47 PM
Darwin Alert: Do not allow yourself to be in place between vehicles. Especially if you think you're dealing with someone who talks about "My uncle-daddy.....".
At the stage described, if your buddy was mashed, you would only have lethal-force option if the driver took action that was clearly intended to make the initial injury worse (fatal).
November 16th, 2005 07:13 PM
So you shoot the guy. OK, now his foot is on the gas, spasm, and you are legless and perhaps history. Great move!!!!!!!!
I get out of the way, and unload after other person leaves...makes no difference if I am armed, because I am.
November 16th, 2005 10:39 PM
None if the above is necessary.. you said the stuff is heavy, so you pull forward as requested pulling just in front of SBG's vehicle and then start to back up while coasting backward, jam er in drive and floor it. Physics is your friend and the truck neatly unloads self in front of SBG's car and blocks them from leaving for a while. You wave ByBy and smile go home have beer and laugh about it for a long time.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
November 18th, 2005 10:48 AM
South Florida here too. That is normal everyday traffic down here so there is no justification. If you really want to shoot bad drivers, take a spin on I-95 while it runs within Broward County. You's wish for a roof mounted M2.
BTW fellow South Floridians! It is that time of the year again! Canadians are in season and driving our streets!
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
November 19th, 2005 08:44 AM
Three conditions must exist to justify the use of deadly force. (Yes this is a lot to think about under stress, but that's when you must think the best and clearest you can)
ABILITY: SBG must have the ability to do you/other person great personal injury or cause death
OPPORTUNITY: The opportunity exists for SBG to do you or another person great personal injury or cause death.
JEOPARDY: Your life or the life of another is in jeopardy because of the actions of another person.
All of these must exist simultaneously at the moment you are being threatened to justify the use of deadly force.
If you present a weapon/shoot in the above scenario, I think you will probably have serious problems, and even if all three exist you are not obligated or required to use deadly force. Only LEO are obligated. Citizens only have the right to choose, and bear the consequences of that decision.
I question the clarity of the thought processes of GG1, based on the fact that he has placed himself between two vehicles which are already in close proximity to each other. Even if his mother was driving the other vehicle, it's not a smart move. Stuff happens.
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