Friends Mugged @ Fast Food

This happened five or six years ago; just thought of it recently and began evaluating it from a general self-defense and also CCW perspective. Wondering about everyone else's thoughts. I'll give the scenario, and my own thoughts, plus a few variations.

After senior formal at my high school a few years back, three couples decided to swing by one of those 24-hour Mexican restaurants being midnight and 1 AM. This was the first mistake, especially since this particular one has had rumors about gang and drug connections forever. Even supposing, as is probably the case, that those rumors were just rumors, this was a popular hang-out for the more seedy elements of high-school and post-high-school culture in the area. Not unusual to have a few dozen of that late-teen, early-20's age deadbeats hanging out in the parking lot after 11 PM.

However, the three guys were all strong athletes, all future ROTC guys looking the join the military and probably feeling invincible.

Anyway, when they showed up there was nobody there but the staff. They got their food, and a little later two of the guys got up to buy some sort of dessert. At the same time, a dozen kids of the late-high-school, early-20's shady variety came in and got in line behind my two friends. One of the thugs mildly grabs on friend's shoulder and asks to borrow a couple bucks, at which point my friend says sorry, he doesn't have any to spare over his shoulder. With no more warning than that, he gets sucker-punched in the kidneys and then the dozen guys just set on the two guys in line, knocking them over and proceeding to kick them while their down.

My third friend grabs the three girls and shoves them out the exit. He puts them in his car, gives them keys, tells them to lock the doors, drive across the street, and call 911. He then goes back in to try to help his friends. He, of course, gets beat for trying to help.

In the end they took their three wallets, which didn't have much money. The guy who came to help got some bruised ribs and a headache. The other two were in worse shape but nothing permanent. Both had broken ribs, one had a concussion and broken nose, while the other ended up with a couple broken fingers on his right hand from getting stomped.

The guys filed charges, but nothing came of it. The restaurant staff, no doubt not wanting to involve themselves, all claimed they were in the back and didn't see the incident -- a bold-faced lie, of course.


A few of my own thoughts:
-Going there late at night was obviously a poor decision in the first place, especially as they were still in tuxes and dresses. I did it myself in high school a couple times (never in a tux..... or dress), but I suppose I was lucky.
-At the same point, given the town (Tucson), that kind of thing could potentially happen at almost any fast-food place in town anytime of the day... (except the local In N Out, where I see an average of four LEO's in there every time I go in -- my coworker and I joke it's because the nearby Krispy Kreme got shut down :hand5: jest kidding, officers, of course.)

For the evaluation standpoint, let's say it was midday, so you might be there anyway.
-You're at the register ordering and a bunch of guys come in. What do you do? If unarmed, for whatever reason? If armed? Certainly there's no cause to draw until they attack, and at that point, at those close quarters with those numbers, you'll be very fortunate if they don't end up taking your weapon away.
-My friends obviously didn't exercise SA, but what can you do anyway when they come in and clump behind you?
-And if you're the third guy sitting with the girls? I think he was wise to get them out of their ASAP, and did well to put them in a car, get them out of immediate danger, and have them call the police. But then what? He came back in to help and got beaten for his trouble. If, for whatever reason, you happened to be unarmed, do you leave your friends to get beaten, knowing you can't really help? Or do you go back in anyway? If you're armed, do you come back? For starters, the friends escaped without any major life-threatening injuries, but you couldn't know that at the time. There's a dozen of them. Are you going to shoot if they don't stop? And what if someone pulls a gun? What if bystanders get shot in the cross-fire? Chances are if you draw they'll just book it. These guys were 2-bit punks, but do you take that chance, considering the numbers?

Thoughts? It was a nasty situation...

Ok, here is what I do to avoid trouble... Out on a date with two other couples late at night at taco bell and a group of a dozen scruffy looking miscreants walk into an otherwise empty place being rambunctious, I look at my buddy and say time to go NOW, walk away from the counter, get our dates and leave through a different exit before they even have a chance to crowd me or start challenging me.

Wouldn't be the first time I walked away from a fast food counter.

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Originally Posted by biasedbulldog

-You're at the register ordering and a bunch of guys come in. What do you do? If unarmed, for whatever reason? If armed? Certainly there's no cause to draw until they attack, and at that point, at those close quarters with those numbers, you'll be very fortunate if they don't end up taking your weapon away.
-My friends obviously didn't exercise SA, but what can you do anyway when they come in and clump behind you?

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Don't let it be too close quarters. All 3 of them shouldn't be facing away from the door, pressed up against the counter. Have whoever's not ordering cover the other guy's 6. Make space.

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Originally Posted by biasedbulldog

-My friends obviously didn't exercise SA, but what can you do anyway when they come in and clump behind you?

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A couple of times in the past 15yrs, I have felt the little hairs rising on the neck as a character or group came in. Each time, I simply indicated I wasn't ready yet and stepped aside to mull things over. It kept me out of the "line of fire" and gave me a view.

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Originally Posted by Bark'n

Wouldn't be the first time I walked away from a fast food counter.

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Yup. Nothing's worth my life. Certainly not my place in a line, nor my hunger. Have withdrawn, previously, for all of the obvious reasons.

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... did well to put them in a car, get them out of immediate danger, and have them call the police. But then what? He came back in to help and got beaten for his trouble.

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What, indeed? If all it's going to do is result in getting pounded or killed, then there's not much point in posturing. If armed, however, and folks are getting beaten to within an inch of their lives, that's a whole different thing. You need to decide whether to terminate that felonious assault. Multiple attackers can be very, very bad, quickly.

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There's a dozen of them. Are you going to shoot if they don't stop?

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I'm watching a serious beating by multiple attackers, with a dozen thugs standing guard? Odds are, you'll get rushed and eliminated. Still, if armed the way I normally am and a situation like that goes down in which my group is attacked like that, damned right I'm resisting.

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And what if someone pulls a gun?

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I pray that he misses on the first shot and I stop him quickly. Though, this is likely a fool's hope with a dozen homeys. Like as not, more than one is armed.

As others have posted on numerous threads: get off the mark, respond immediately and effectively, find cover.

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What if bystanders get shot in the cross-fire?

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That's part of the risk. What if? They'll be hurting. Hopefully, they won't die. Legal ramifications? Keep in mind that it's the thugs that committed felony assault via multiple attackers. Nobody else caused this situation. Sure, some places will hold your noogies to the fire, legally, for defending yourself in a situation that results in a friendly fire casualty. It's why we train, practice, vary our routines, run through situations in our heads. Far better than getting beaten badly and having your weapon taken to be used on you.

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Chances are if you draw they'll just book it. These guys were 2-bit punks ...

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Really? Sure about that? How does one know, for sure?

The probability is that you'll survive whatever they dish out. But are you willing to take that chance in a multi-attacker scenario in which they're brutally beating everyone in your group? You're armed and going to do nothing to stop your violent beating?

Not I.

Tough call here. I've taken some beatings in situations like this (bars), and sadly I dished some out too (looking back I'm sad to say for no good reason). The truth is that sometimes young punks are looking for trouble. A couple of high school kids in the wrong spot at the wrong time provided some fun for these guys. If they started with me, a mid thirties 6 foot 225 pound guy, I'd figure they were serious threats. Why? Because nobody except Andre the Giant would look at a guy my size and see an easy mark. So if they really wanted trouble I would try to make space and get my pistol into play as fast as possible. I hope that when I drop the first guy the rest "book it". If not I run my gun dry and then take my whippin.

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Originally Posted by Bark'n

Ok, here is what I do to avoid trouble... Out on a date with two other couples late at night at taco bell and a group of a dozen scruffy looking miscreants walk into an otherwise empty place being rambunctious, I look at my buddy and say time to go NOW, walk away from the counter, get our dates and leave through a different exit before they even have a chance to crowd me or start challenging me.

Wouldn't be the first time I walked away from a fast food counter.

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I agree, they lack street smarts. :tumbleweed:

Best to avoid situations like that in the first place, go through the drive thru or find a safer place. Don't let yourself get caught in crazy places like south central L.A. after midnight no matter how well armed you are.

Not a pretty situation at all. Once the thugs arrive, you are trapped between them and the counter. At this point at best you are beaten and robbed, at worst crippled or killed. Even being armed may not have improved the outcome very much - they are too many and too close.

This is one situation where pepper spray might have helped - it could have made the counter area too unpleasant for the BG's to stay long enough to do a really thorough job on you.

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Originally Posted by obxned

This is one situation where pepper spray might have helped ...

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With a dozen homeys just itching to back up whatever foolish, chest-pounding assault their beefy friends attempt, this reminds me of a line from the film Poetic Justice:

"Man, pepper spray's like Binaca to them Rottweilers!"

-- Lucky, a mailman with street smarts, when his supervisor asks why he didn't "force" his way to the mailbox by spraying the dog.

I am not going to get into the "should not have been there in the first place" I will play this out as given by the OP.

If you are one of the two at the counter when this goes down, you're screwed armed or not. You might be able to keep your wits and ride out the hits to get your weapon and get a shot off and hope that the rest will scramble. Better than nothing.

The third guy did absolutely right by getting the rest of the party out and calling 911. Coming back in unarmed when out numbered, valiant but not real bright (and I would have done the same if no other option existed).

Had I been #3 and CCing, I would have come back in drawn and very loudly giving commands to cease and back off (they have now received their one and only warning) while keeping an avenue of exit and cover open.

12 on 3 is a huge disparity of force, and in CO, I am justified in using deadly force to protect the well being of others under such circumstances.

12 on 3 at this point has way too many variables to go on any farther beyond the warning.

Same as above I will take it from the OP's scenario, the do do has hit the fan, I am party number 3
I have carried a knife since I was fifteen. Had it been me at that age the girls would have been taken to the door and given directions and immediately deployed my knife with maximum force of violence. First target would have his hair grabbed and head removed from than on whatever hack and slash to survive. At fifteen my martial training had barely started. Maybe four years active training Hopefully their headless hombre would encourage them to run.
Had I not had a knife on me than to the car with the girls return with a weapon of some kind crowbar comes to mind same course of action.
Today, it would be escort girls to door issue directions as soon as they were out the door turn and unload. Move away from the door so the thugs have an exit if they opt to use it. Fire from cover if possible. Friends are on the ground out of the line of fire, thugs in a bunch I'd be hoping for a couple of two fers. Still unload the ten reload the thirteen. My guess is as they are involved in the beating and have tunnel vision I'd have at least three rounds out before they even registered what is going on.
Last option is back to the second scenario take the girls to the car. I carry my weapons knife with some camping fishing gear in the car trunk it is illegal to carry in WA, if I did not have a gun on me I would opt to use it, much nicer for the job at hand than the Kershaw in my pocket if one of my long guns were not also in the trunk. If one was I of course would use it

There are "groups of thugs" that do this .... their intent is not to rob, but to beat the hell out of someone for the fun of it , and often pick on those with females with them. It happened to a friend's son... 4 guys approached, once they started suddenly hitting them, 10 more appeared and jumped in out of the dark. He was almost killed.... severe shape. Was in intensive care for quite awhile... riding the borderline.

All I"ll say at this point, I've been in some weird situations or walked into some, don't take them lightly. Many times people have ended up shot as well.

I tend not to go out in Tucson after 1700hrs, it seems like crime is rampant here. Last week two girls were hacked up by a machette weilding hispanic gangbanger. I really hope I get orders out of here before my kids are of school age. I know every town has it's crime, but the illegal's and drug crime here is higher than normal. Stay safe man...I do love Arizona...we need to take our state back!

That's a tough scenario. I've been known to eat at a restaurant in a rough part of town from time to time, so it's food for thought. Anyone, anywhere, anytime, right?

If I'm one of the guys standing at the counter, I'm literally forced to draw and defend myself once I'm surrounded and become the victim of a robbery attempt...especially a violent one. I feel that losing control of my weapon is a virtual death sentence. Hopefully, 11 of them run off after the first one takes a few hits to COM. Hopefully.

As far as being the 3rd guy who rushed the girls out to his car goes, I'd have to be pretty certain that my two friends would lose their lives if I didn't step in before I did anything. I believe that in MN, the law states that I need to call 911, stand there, and watch the beating...so I'd have some serious 'splainin to do if I did intervene. And since I carry, which means the stakes are always high in this kind of situation, I'd have made a mental note of how many rounds I had on me including my reload, ensuring there were enough to go around, drawn, and chosen my first target before even setting foot into the restaurant to save my friends. To clarify my point, I mean that I would not step foot into the restaurant unless I intended to shoot someone, and by intervening, I had already made the decision to shoot. Loud verbal commands, then 2 rounds COM to first target if advanced upon. Repeat as necessary. Afterward, dial 911, call lawyer, and pray I don't go to jail.

Good thoughts everyone. My own...

If I was already cornered at the register, as in the scenario, I think I'd try to angle my right side away from the group so I'd have a chance at least of weapon retention. When they attack, get it out ASAP and put a few rounds in nearest guy. Again, hopefully that will be enough. If it isn't, I'm unloading my handgun, both to try to stop as many as possible/convince them to leave, and because I don't want them using it against me if they wrestle it away.

If I'm third guy, I'm doing pretty much what John did -- get the girls out and in a locked, moving vehicle calling 911. If I'm armed, I'm going back in. Loud verbal commands, if they don't book it immediately, stop the attack... Leave, of course, an exit open for them to leave if they so choose.

If I'm unarmed, I'd probably be an idiot and do what he did. Probably when I'm older, wiser, and have a family I'd think more, but I'd have trouble watching two get friends getting trashed without trying to do something. I think at the least I'd be glancing around for some sort of weapon -- metal pole, chair, anything to give me an edge... though, again, escalating with a weapon is only good if you don't have it turned against you...

I'm pretty certain in Arizona that you're justified in intervening to help a victim.


B52, that's probably wise. This was the Northeast side, so it's not like they were tooling around South Tucson or anything. Every area of Tucson is a potentially nasty area. Violent crime is fairly bad, but it seems auto theft is out of control. We're #10 for auto theft per capita in the U.S. -- and I've personal experience with that.