How to handle a dementia patient gone wild

This is a discussion on How to handle a dementia patient gone wild within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hypothetically, if I saw someone being violent and stabbing someone...and I was armed...yet in fear for my life or those of my family.....I'd drop him. ...

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Thread: How to handle a dementia patient gone wild

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Hypothetically, if I saw someone being violent and stabbing someone...and I was armed...yet in fear for my life or those of my family.....I'd drop him.

    Why? You can apply the same logic to "....he didn't mean to rob anyone...he didn't have a job to earn money" or "he's a crack addict....he just needed a fix" or "he just gets angry sometimes...it makes him blind to everything he does...it isn't his fault"

    Regardless of the excuses...once someone starts committing harm against another, they are like any other BG....WHY they are committing a crime is irrelevent.
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  3. #17
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Hypothetically, if I saw someone being violent and stabbing someone...and I was armed...yet in fear for my life or those of my family.....I'd drop him.
    In the general public, I would agree. You would have no way of knowing who this was or why they were behaving in such a manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    So let's say that an 80 something year old man is in a dining hall with dozens of other people at one of these larger retirement facilities. You are there having a meal with one of your parents. All of a sudden, this man gets violent.
    The OP was talking about a care facility. In such a facility you would have prior knowledge that people are mentally unstable, thats why they are there. In that situation I doubt you'd stand a chance in court.

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  5. #19
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    There is a moral dimension

    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    In the general public, I would agree. You would have no way of knowing who this was or why they were behaving in such a manner.

    The OP was talking about a care facility. In such a facility you would have prior knowledge that people are mentally unstable, thats why they are there. In that situation I doubt you'd stand a chance in court.

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    Moreover, many such facilities are considered hospitals or medical facilities and may be no- carry zones; depending on your state.

    There is a moral dimension. Some folks just have to be cut some slack even if doing so puts you in danger.

    Just suppose, your teenager gets out of control because that's what happens with teens, sometimes. Do you drop the kid or do everything in your power to bring him down without hurting him?

    Most parents would walk in front of a bus to save their kids. So the moral equation is different when it is your teen. And it is different when it is your dad who has Alzheimers. Remember, this is a man who would have walked in front of a bus or taken a bullet to save you.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Now you're changing the scenario from a stranger to someone I know...in a medical facility. In this case...have a CCW is irrelevent. However, if not properly posted (YMMV), and the staff cannot handle their responsibilities or lose control, I guess we'll see what happens.

    In the event it is a stranger: call 911 and be a witness as you leave

    Family member: hit'em with a chair.

    Teenager: trying to stop a teen (depending on the size of the teen compared to me) without hurting them is almost a no-win. In that case, they have no self-control and will hurt you. What would you like to hear?

    Given this is a hypothetical, there is no "right" way. Everyone has an opinion...
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Been there done that with my grandmother while we were doing homecare for her . Long and short of my tactics were to control her arms early , firmly , and gently untill she could settle down ( we did not have a realistic restraint option that would not injure her ) . A couple of incidents led to her being put into a " home " and a few scars for me . , I was willing to continue the home care , but the wife was getting " raggid " and the home health care nurses made it clear that they would consider it abuse if we did not make the choice to institutionalize her ( not because of the incidents , or what i did , rather because she needed more health monerting than i could provide as a former emt or they could provide themselves .
    Point i make is that if someone suffers from "dementia " on any level you can no more morally hurt them than you can a young child . Restrain yes , but only humanly , and frankly all my years of arrest control was basically worthless tho i was able to use some modified koga techniques to both block her strikes , and grapple without hurting her . However its not rocket science and i just fell back to what i knew , common sense would do the same thing .
    The problem of Dementia is not the occasional physical manifestation as a rule , it is living with the day in , day out emotional grind of watching a loved one become a stranger . The really bad times come in the moments of lucidity when they " know and remember " what they have done and bawl while apologizing for what they could not control . IMHO Cancer is not so bad after all , it just takes your body and life , that would in ways be a blessing to me , and if i cannot go fast well i prey for cancer or similar so that i wont be the burden to my loved ones that my grandmother could not help herself being to us .
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Sigh. What are your "less than lethals?" OC his butt. If its simple dementia, the offender will most likely curl up crying. If its a psychosis, you probably just stepped in a hole.

    Folks don't generally unexpectedly "go off" in care facilities. Its not a psych ward. There is a history, and the individuals are appropriately socialized. A larger concern would be grandma or grandpa being raped during lights out, or contracting an STD during consensual (if confused) intercourse.

    Avoid EDPs. At all costs. Far, FAR more trouble in both long and short term than you can deal with, if they are violent.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Natureboypkr's Avatar
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  10. #24
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    A couple decades ago, my Mom was the head shift nurse at a few mental health facilities ("psyche wards"), night shift usually. They mostly had some druggies who fried their brains, some dementia, some with very serious (but "so far" non-violent) issues. Lots of medicated residents.

    Anyway, she's all of 5'2" and 100# so she wouldn't stand much of a chance in any altercation. But she never had any issues with patients. Why? Maybe because she always had two orderlies with her. Nothing so special about that except she picked orderlies who were also the offensive linemen for the local state college! Big guys do make a statement just by being there.

    Back on topic, some suggestions about OC are problematic. You MUST consider the health ramifications on the other patients. In such a facility, you cannot assume that everyone is otherwise healthy, just deranged. That will seriously get your butt sued! Mental health facilities will have orderlies monitoring any group activities, including lunches, visitations, etc., especially if there is any hint of the misbehavior. The professionals (nurses, doctors, etc.) go to great lengths to NOT have episodes. If they flag anyone, all the staff is on alert around that person. And they try to avoid letting hotspots come together or mingle.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    1) Back on topic, some suggestions about OC are problematic. You MUST consider the health ramifications on the other patients. In such a facility, you cannot assume that everyone is otherwise healthy, just deranged. That will seriously get your butt sued!

    2) The professionals (nurses, doctors, etc.) go to great lengths to NOT have episodes. If they flag anyone, all the staff is on alert around that person. And they try to avoid letting hotspots come together or mingle.
    1) Gel. Close range, or sprayed in the palm and slathered on the face (cool application I had not heard of before). If there is a genuinely violent incident, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of being sued. Claimants can get far more from the facility than Joe Bob who wanted to intervene. You have no "duty" as a private citizen, unless the local, county or state gvts prohibit OC/CS. Just as you have no responsibility to keep someone's grandpa from filleting other people, you have no responsibility to "consider all potential consequential effects" of basic force application, should you decide to do something. Period. If its a major concern, walk out of the area.

    2) "Professionals" may be a bit of a stretch, in many instances, but you are correct. As described, the scenario is rather like the, "What do I do if attacked by 15 Ninja while walking in a daycare...?" No offense, XMP, but this is one that is very unlikely, and solutions are pretty basic.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Based on the scenario that the OP posted, I think that anything above physical restraint is just way over the top and would leave you in a bad possition legally.

    You are in a retirement facility, ie everyone is old, not 200 lb physically fit people, the person has a table knife, I don't see that as being a deadly weapon. He didn't say steak knife or butcher knife, just a plain old table knife possibly with some little tiny serations. Security is on thier way already, so in very short order there will be other people to assist in restraining the individual.

    I don't see any need to draw a weapon, use spray or try to break anyones legs or arms. I believe you would be opening a real can of legal problems with any of those actions. First and foremost, you must remember that you are a guest in a retirement facility. How the heck is that going to look to the jury when you try to explain why you shot a guy or whatever because he had a butter knife. I definately would not want to be in that seat answering the question as to how you felt your or someone else's life was in danger from that.

    I help with persons with disabilitys frequently, and would hate to think what would happen if others in the area thought like some of the responses to this post when one of those people got angry cause they couldn't have another chocolate bar. I carry my weapon when dealing with them just like anywhere else, but the thought of using it against one of them has never remotely crossed my mind, nor would it in a retirement home against a person with a table knife.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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