His word against yours
This is a discussion on His word against yours within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CopperKnight
There actually will be evidence against you. If the mugger can describe your gun and where you drew it from and ...
July 22nd, 2008 09:57 AM
I don't think a warrant would be issued on here-say alone........there would have to be more proof. Besides...everybody knows there are two sides to a story and up to this point, the authorities only have one side. Law enforcement has no legal grounds to prove the BG's story without a warrant..but they can take a written report. BG's don't usually have enough backbone to follow through with something like that anyway as it draws too much attention to them.
Originally Posted by CopperKnight
FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment: Annotations pg. 2 of 6
Much litigation has concerned the sufficiency of the complaint to establish probable cause. Mere conclusory assertions are not enough.
If you and I have some sort of altercation in traffic, and I call 911 and report you with a description and tell the dispatcher you are a drunk driver weaving all over the road, (because I want to see you get in trouble) they can dispatch an officer to investigate, but they cannot legally pull you over until they observe those actions themselves or find another viable reason to pull you over. They just can't go on what I told them as the gospel truth.
July 22nd, 2008 09:57 AM
July 22nd, 2008 05:40 PM
RamRod, exactly. Thanks for providing a sane backdrop, based on reality. It's possible we have some wanna be cops here, even a few mall ninjas. Get it straight, most cops do not want you to be their "auxiliary," many indeed do not truly respect you nor your right to carry (it's a permit that can be revoked) and the LESS contact you have with them, the better.
If this ruffles the good guy LEOs here, sorry. It's realistic and there's a lot of fantasy and bravado working here (like "call in a defensive shooting" Hell, you want to support the scumbag's family for the next forty years? Have at it, shoot away!).
Discretion is the better part of valor. Many times, indeed.
Last edited by Coldwarvet; July 22nd, 2008 at 05:47 PM.
July 23rd, 2008 09:40 AM
I believe the original question was: you are presented with a situation in which you have reasonable cause to use deadly force (draw and present) but the offending party decides to depart the scene; at that point do you call 911 to report the incident?
Originally Posted by Coldwarvet
Long story short, based on personal experiences, one should call in the incident. Should there be "pursuant events" one is far better served with having the first and last word. From the non-civilian perspective, if you felt the need to draw a weapon at one point, and now you are involved in a subsequent altercation...what were you doing the first time that made you feel the need to stay under the radar...?
August 18th, 2008 10:59 AM
Just how much credence does a "his word against yours" complaint actually have?
Understand, I have an extremely limited amount of experience with the real legal system (as opposed to the theoretical legal system). I have never had a complaint filed against me, never been pulled over by a policeman.
To convict me of a crime, doesn't some sort of evidence have to be shown to prove beyond a doubt that I committed it?
Okay, feel free to laugh and call me naive. It's an honest question though and I need a no-holds-barred, real-world answer.
A man without a blackthorn stick is a man without an expedient. - Irish Proverb
Why so SERIOUS?
August 18th, 2008 11:11 AM
You should have called police as soon as you got a chance.You were a crime victim as soon as the perp pulled his weapon and attempted to rob you.We all need to know what the laws are and also it is helpful to know what the elements of a crime are.Be sure of what was you basis for action and don't make any apologies or try to fudge the facts.It is what it is and don't try to make it anything else.One big plus of having a CPL or CCW is that LE assumes you are a decent citizen just by posessing a permit due to the background checks that need to be done to qualify.(At least the smart ones do.)
August 18th, 2008 11:16 AM
That's the ticket. (The answer to the scenario as posed is, I wouldn't be in that spot, because I'd have entered my car, locked the doors while scanning the area, and dialed 911 to report the event).
Originally Posted by dukalmighty
When in doubt, just ask yourself, "What would Theodore Roosevelt do?"
Every society is 3 missed meals away from anarchy.
August 21st, 2008 10:09 AM
Good advice. But, if you live in one of the areas like where I live, the cell phone is not of any use. Not enough cell towers, are their excuses. So we have more "dead spots" than live. At any rate, this would put a delay into getting your 911 call in, till you could reach a location where your signal would get thru.
August 21st, 2008 10:35 AM
My concealed course stressed extensively...it's a bad idea to carry today if you don't already carry a cell phone. Even if it's just a cheap pay-as-you-go...and stressed the importance of dialing in...so really was part of the training.
Also reminds me of an incident:
A car ran a red light and hit me as I was pulling through the intersection. All the cars behind me went on their way (bye bye witnesses). Police show up and the other car insists they had a green (despite the sun being right in their line of sight with the light. Cop walks up to them and tells them, "We have a witness calling in to dispatch now. Are you SURE it was green?" The recanted, I saved a bunch in insurance rates, and they went to driving school. In the situation described, someone could mention, "Oh, we'll have the case locked up for you! There was a security camera across the street, so we'll be pulling the tapes!" and see how the perp responds.
August 21st, 2008 10:47 AM
i was robbed at knife point. the knife point physically touching my skin. if i did not comply, i know he would have done something...the dude was a crack fiend. He robbed me, and left me there in shock. this was before cell phones. I ran to the nearest store...called the cops. their response was less then enthusiastic. I was nowhere near a place to call for help, etc...it was 2 hours before i was able to contact cops.
if i am ever in a situation where a knife/gun is pointed at me or worse touching my person (of my wifes), that is enough of a threat to me. i will act, then call cops. i may be dead by the time they arrive.
Let's Roll - Todd Beamer
August 21st, 2008 12:33 PM
Having skimmed this thread I don't think this was brought up but...
The BG is NOT THE ONLY one who might call the police to report the incident. Other possible witnesses, including any friends of the BG may call this in and report you as well.
In today's society you can't count on the witness even if "impartial" to report the event as it occurred. They may simply report "man with gun" and your description.
YOU call first, YOU are the "victim". If not you takes yer chances...
August 21st, 2008 12:39 PM
The bottom line is If you draw you call
If you don't feel safe were you are at leave the area and call as soon as you are in a secure area, your house, resturant, gas station etc...
Get your story out first.
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
August 21st, 2008 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I agree 100%
As has already been pointed out in most other replies, reporting the incident right after it happened would have probably eliminated the need for a police visit, but that horse has been beat to death many times over so I won't go there anymore. I also won't play the would'a, could'a, should'a game. Following the original scenario, the incident happened the way it did and it's now too late to call in the incident since the police are already at your door. So what do you do now? It would seem to me it's how you handle yourself with the police that will probably decide if they simply have a long talk with you, file a report or decide to take you for a ride "downtown".
If it were my friend/family member and they were asking my advice in a similar situation I'd say be up front with the police, at least initially. Don't try to BS them or be confrontational. Tell the police EXACTLY what happened during the incident, no more and no less. Describe the man, his actions and the knife he pulled in as much detail as possible. If you told anyone else about the incident prior to the police showing up at your door, give the LEO's their name and address/phone numbers. If asked why you didn't report the incident to the police when it happened, tell the truth... that nobody was injured, no property was taken. In the immediate aftermath with the excitement and what goes with it, you just didn't think of it until long afterwards. You simply decided to look at is as a learning experience with a lesson learned. If they start pressing you about personal matters unrelated to the incident, want to do a search of your home (w/o a warrant) and/or want you to go to the station with them, quit talking. Tell them you'd be happy to comply but due to possible legal liability you want to contact your attorney first. After that, do what he/she advises you to do.
If you keep your cool, tell the truth (no more than necessary but no less), don't act as if the police are "bad guys" trying to hassle an innocent victim and don't try to act like a "jail house lawyer", the odds are highly in your favor of nothing else happening. OTOH, if you have a criminal record, there is a problem with you owning and/or carrying a gun, there is something illegal about the gun itself or you give the police a lot of attitude, be prepared for a visit to the local PD. Once that happens, all bets are off. Hire the best lawyer you could afford, follow their advice and prepare for the worst time of your life.
Just my opinion... take it for what it's worth.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
August 21st, 2008 03:24 PM
His word verses your word is correct, and his word alone is all the law requires for an indictment. You are disadvantaged because you did not report it, and he did report it (although a different version].
Originally Posted by exactlymypoint
You say "there really is no evidence." His testimony is evidence.
. . . . there really is no evidence that you did anything. How could they charge you with anything? What would be the best course of action here?
You say "How could they charge you with anything?" See comments above about an indictment.
Is this real life? Absolutely. I have tried similar cases on "his word" versus "your word." The fact that he reported the incident and you did not report it may tend to bolster his credibility over yours, especially if he has a clean record.
As to the recommended course of action: See all of the previous comments made by others.
August 21st, 2008 07:39 PM
I would want to tell the truth.
Originally Posted by exactlymypoint
#1 You should have called LE (I know already assumed, but really, really, really, important).
#2 I just don't like to lie.
#3 It is the assumption worries me.
Video or a witnesses might have seen the event, but not have seen that a mugging was taking place. Instead they noticed a crazy guy with a gun who ran to the their car. I know it is outside the hypothical. I can't get past it. Once you lie, and LE knows (esp via possible 3rd party) you are lying about something, you have a huge hole to dig out of.
#4 Forget #2 or #3. Do I say:
"I was in fear for my life. (Pause for officer to write down). I would like to talk to my lawyer."
"I would like to talk to my lawyer."
Ya, cops might hate people who lawyer up, but I would need time to think. Better to lose the CCW (as terrible as that sounds to the bottom of my soul) then serve jail time. With a lawyer you have a way to tell the truth off the record. You don't really have this option when the words come out of your own mouth. The 5th can be a fine thing.
August 23rd, 2008 01:50 AM
Years ago I had a situation very similar to this one. I got home late. The family was out of town. I heard some one trying to get the front door open. The door was glass, and I could see the guy trying to get the door open. Long story short, when I challenged him he did not leave or respond to me. I approached him with my duty weapon drawn. As he finally ran away, he told me that he was going to call the police because I pointed a gun at him. A few minutes later, I called dispatch to report the incident. She notified me that there was a guy across the street from my house reporting that some one pulled a gun on him. After I composed myself, I had dispatch send a unit out to pick him up. He went to jail that night.
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