A scenario to think about, and my real-life experience. - Page 2

A scenario to think about, and my real-life experience.

This is a discussion on A scenario to think about, and my real-life experience. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Believe me I'm big on having other options. I spent a good many years teaching Jujitsu and have a lot of experience in other marital ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Believe me I'm big on having other options. I spent a good many years teaching Jujitsu and have a lot of experience in other marital arts. Like so many other things there are too ways to figure out what you would do in a situation like this.

    One is to actually live through it, as you have. This is the best indication of what you might do, but doesn't allow for follow up exposer for you to put into practice what you have learned. So you are always wandering what if I would have done that, or could I do that if this happened again?

    The other solution is through to inoculate yourself to this situation as realistically as possible. Which means being taken down buy a very big guy, who is raining down punches on you, that will cause some degree of pain. The difference is that in training you know the guy isn't really going to kill you and it is usually not as much of a surprise when it happens. But the you will still be in fear of getting hurt, which will cause duress. If you make the training realistic enough, you will experience allot of the same things that you would experience in a real situation. Example; in a real situation if you go for your gun, you might catch a punch to the face, and you don't want that because it hurts and you might get knocked out. In training, if you go for your fake gun, you might eat a punch and you don't want that because it hurts(even if he is punching at 60 present power, to avoid serious injury, it still hurts).

    I know a lot of people don't want to go through this type of training, but it is really the best way to prepare and find out what you can, can't, will and will not do when the poop hits the rotating blade. I cant tell you how many times I've had stronger guys on top of me trying to hit, kick, choke or twist me. Mostly in training, but sometimes for real. I can tell you that any real fight I have ever been in, didn't come close to my average day training on the mat. I don't believe that you can not fully prepare for a physical confrontation through training. I have been in both and training has been much harder than reality. I'm not saying we all have to be cage fighters. I'm just saying that the better you train the better you are able to handle situations like that.

    In the situation of the cow, you mentioned that your only instinct was to put your hands up to defend yourself. That indeed is an instinctive response and one that almost everyone would do, including me. However through training and taking repeated blows, that hurt, I realized that coving up and playing defense will never solve the problem. You are just waiting for your attacker to kill you, or get board and stop. So in Jujitsu on the ground, you learn to shrimp along with various other methods of creating space to escape. Which is a conditioned response for me under a situation like that, because I have done it so many times under stress. Where as it is natural for most people to cover up in that position, to protect your head and vitals. I KNOW with out a doubt that through my training and constant exposer under presser that I would cover up and create space to get away.

    Have you guys ever seen the video of the boxer who got knocked out and was still throwing punches? That would be me under the cow without thinking, putting my feet between me and the cow and shrimping to get away and create space+getting up as soon as possible. I have no doubt.

    Great post, this is the type of real questions the facilitate realistic thinking. Just like Clint East Wood said. "A man's got to know his limitations."


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    Believe me I'm big on having other options. I spent a good many years teaching Jujitsu and have a lot of experience in other marital arts. Like so many other things there are too ways to figure out what you would do in a situation like this.

    One is to actually live through it, as you have. This is the best indication of what you might do, but doesn't allow for follow up exposer for you to put into practice what you have learned. So you are always wandering what if I would have done that, or could I do that if this happened again?

    The other solution is through to inoculate yourself to this situation as realistically as possible. Which means being taken down buy a very big guy, who is raining down punches on you, that will cause some degree of pain. The difference is that in training you know the guy isn't really going to kill you and it is usually not as much of a surprise when it happens. But the you will still be in fear of getting hurt, which will cause duress. If you make the training realistic enough, you will experience allot of the same things that you would experience in a real situation. Example; in a real situation if you go for your gun, you might catch a punch to the face, and you don't want that because it hurts and you might get knocked out. In training, if you go for your fake gun, you might eat a punch and you don't want that because it hurts(even if he is punching at 60 present power, to avoid serious injury, it still hurts).

    I know a lot of people don't want to go through this type of training, but it is really the best way to prepare and find out what you can, can't, will and will not do when the poop hits the rotating blade. I cant tell you how many times I've had stronger guys on top of me trying to hit, kick, choke or twist me. Mostly in training, but sometimes for real. I can tell you that any real fight I have ever been in, didn't come close to my average day training on the mat. I don't believe that you can not fully prepare for a physical confrontation through training. I have been in both and training has been much harder than reality. I'm not saying we all have to be cage fighters. I'm just saying that the better you train the better you are able to handle situations like that.

    In the situation of the cow, you mentioned that your only instinct was to put your hands up to defend yourself. That indeed is an instinctive response and one that almost everyone would do, including me. However through training and taking repeated blows, that hurt, I realized that coving up and playing defense will never solve the problem. You are just waiting for your attacker to kill you, or get board and stop. So in Jujitsu on the ground, you learn to shrimp along with various other methods of creating space to escape. Which is a conditioned response for me under a situation like that, because I have done it so many times under stress. Where as it is natural for most people to cover up in that position, to protect your head and vitals. I KNOW with out a doubt that through my training and constant exposer under presser that I would cover up and create space to get away.

    Have you guys ever seen the video of the boxer who got knocked out and was still throwing punches? That would be me under the cow without thinking, putting my feet between me and the cow and shrimping to get away and create space+getting up as soon as possible. I have no doubt.

    Great post, this is the type of real questions the facilitate realistic thinking. Just like Clint East Wood said. "A man's got to know his limitations."
    Agreed. That's part of how I used to train. Our instructor would have a group of 10 or more students stand in a circle with one person in the middle and that person in the middle would get attacked from all directions non-stop. Many times you would be totally blindsided by the guys behind you and they weren't holding back punches either. Giant welts, bruises, bruised and battered ribs, busted noses and cuts were the norm...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    For the given scenario, where would you recommend?
    Well, there's a few things to consider. For 9 scenarios out of 10, you're regular carry method works. This is just the one exception to the rule. So you have to decide if it's worth changing your training regiment over.

    If you're trained well enough to be comfortable to work on the ground I would just keep an IWB around 4 or 5 and a knife somewhere lower on a leg. I wouldn't go for my gun in that situation though because I know I'm not good enough on the ground to wriggle my way out well enough to get to the gun every time. I know I can reach the knife just about every time because that's how I've trained. Repetition and muscle memory. But at 4 or 5ish you could still be able to get the gun if you're able to slip your hips out to one side or to do an upward lift type escape. There is a multitude of methods for this and each one depends on the situation you're in. You need training that covers at least escapes in ground fighting like you would get at a traditional jujitsu school to be comfortable enough to pull that off reliably.

    For me I just always trained to go H2H long enough to be able to get to my knife and/or get back up if at all possible.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  4. #19
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    Just for clarification I wouldn't have fired on the cow, doing so may have just intensified her anger. It certainly wouldn't have dropped her. She was just being too good of a mama. Sorry no video was taken, though I would love to see how it went about.

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.....Beeeeeff.

    Survival first, counterattack as the situation allows. An armed friend would have been real handy in this instance. This is kind of like getting hit by a car.Sometimes you number is up and there isn't much you can do about it but hope to survive.Lots of time afterwards to reflect with woulda,shoulda,coulda (if you live through it.

  5. #20
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    Since my wife carries also I know she would be the one who would save me. All I would have to worry about is how to get the big dead guy off of me when she was done.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  6. #21
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    Oh by the way, sorry about your luck PPK and I'm glad your ok.

    Here are a few videos that might help, but again realistic training is the key.

    YouTube - GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN ACTION: for PSP on UMD

    YouTube - Gracie Insider April Technique of the Month

    YouTube - Knee on Belly Escape - Pushing the knee and pulling the foot

    These are just a few examples. Of course following anything like this, you would want to get to your feet. My point is not to teach you jujitsu, just to show you that there are techniques out their that work well for these scenarios. In regards to drawing the gun, I would first escape to the point that I get up, or at least put get my legs/feet between him and me and push off(create distance) between me and him before drawing a weapon. If he is able to reach the weapon, there is a very good chance maybe 50/50 that he will see you going for it and wrestle it away from you. Now you are really in trouble.

    Simple point, learn to escape and create distance before accessing a weapon. This gets you off the x right away, so you are not taking punches and makes it difficult for him to take your weapon away from you.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    Oh by the way, sorry about your luck PPK and I'm glad your ok.
    Thanks. I haven't gone to the doctor. I've scaled back on any heavy work, but still staying active. Taking a NSAID med, and I'd say I have a lot of very deep bruising. To cough or sneeze is about the most painful thing I can think of right now.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Thanks for telling this story, ppkheat. I think you did a fine job of explaining what was going through your head at the time. It's certainly an opportunity to learn from what you went through.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    Thanks for telling this story, ppkheat. I think you did a fine job of explaining what was going through your head at the time. It's certainly an opportunity to learn from what you went through.
    I posted this to help others realize how we might think differently under a serious attack. I hope it helps, and thanks for your input also.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    I posted this to help others realize how we might think differently under a serious attack. I hope it helps, and thanks for your input also.
    And thanks, although I know I've got more to learn than to offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Well, there's a few things to consider. For 9 scenarios out of 10, you're regular carry method works. This is just the one exception to the rule. So you have to decide if it's worth changing your training regiment over.

    If you're trained well enough to be comfortable to work on the ground I would just keep an IWB around 4 or 5 and a knife somewhere lower on a leg. I wouldn't go for my gun in that situation though because I know I'm not good enough on the ground to wriggle my way out well enough to get to the gun every time. I know I can reach the knife just about every time because that's how I've trained. Repetition and muscle memory. But at 4 or 5ish you could still be able to get the gun if you're able to slip your hips out to one side or to do an upward lift type escape. There is a multitude of methods for this and each one depends on the situation you're in. You need training that covers at least escapes in ground fighting like you would get at a traditional jujitsu school to be comfortable enough to pull that off reliably.

    For me I just always trained to go H2H long enough to be able to get to my knife and/or get back up if at all possible.
    Thanks. I appreciate the detailed response. As soon as my world stops whirling for just a moment, I'll look into some pants with a lower pocket, and continue my search for a good folder.

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