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Aiding an Officer - What would you do?

6K views 79 replies 35 participants last post by  NCHornet 
#1 ·
Not as clear-cut as the title reads, so let me explain and ask what would you do, or if anything, how would you do it differently, the same, etc?????

So I'm out with the family late yesterday at a Washington state park, enjoying a little river rafting, picnic, etc. As we load up to leave, I'm pulling out of my parking space, and very few cars are left. Immediately, I hear someone yelling "down on the ground, down on the ground." I look over and see a Park Ranger attempting to apprehend a rather large guy who is taking swings at him and trying to flee. The officer pepper sprays the BG. BG continues to fight but finally falls to the ground.

The frightening part of this is that, suddenly, about 15-20 Hispanic males come running towards the officer with sticks, motorcycle helmets, etc.; yelling at the officer that their "friend" did nothing and to get off of him. I fear for this young officer's life, so my instincts kick in and I jump out to go aid him. I try to reason with the Hispanic males to not obstruct or intefere with the arrest or they will go to jail as well. I also arm myself with the ONLY thing I have... two paddle ores from the raft I was using. * Stupid me - I ran off and realized, the one time I may very well be needing my handgun, I forgot the damn thing!

Oh well, with ores in hand, I'm trying to reason with a rather large group of individuals. Keep in mind, we are at a rural state park several minutes away from small town law enforcement or the King County S.O.

Bottom line, the BG was arrested and taken into custody for intoxication, drug posession, resisting, assaulting an officer, etc. etc. It took about 15 minutes before any assistance showed up for this guy - seemed much longer though!

My question is... what would YOU have done? Realizing you were without your gun, would you have still got out to help? I do know that 911 was called as my wife did so. In addition, the officer was in radio contact. The officer did have a 9mm handgun, but NEVER drew down!!! When he was being chased by this large group of males, carrying sticks and helmets yelling at him, I'm very surprised of his composure NOT to draw. Thoughts ???

Again, what would YOU do? What would you differently - besides NOT forget your dang gun (stupid me).
 
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#36 ·
I once had a citizen assist me with an arrest. Generally I would frown on that, but I was attempting to arrest this guy and four of his friends surrounded me, I called for backup but it took them about two minutes to get there. That doesn't sound like a long time, but it is an eternity when you are outnumbered five to one. The citizen was a bouncer at a local night club, who saw my predicament and backed the other guys off so I could effect the arrest. I was very grateful. In my state, if you are assisting an LEO, you are temporarily acting under his aegis and have all of the powers that he has. This doesn't happen often, but I am assuming it is remnant of the Old West days, when the sheriff had to round up a posse.
 
#37 ·
bgriffin70:

You done good sir, and THANK YOU.

I was not the officer in that situation you describe, but I have needed "assistance" a time or two in my life.

As to why the officer didn't draw his weapon is beyond me, as it was clearly indicated from what you described. This was clearly a "Disparity of Force" situation.

I'm glad for you that things turned out as well as they did. You probably wouldn't be here to read this if you had needed your gun and didn't have it on you. I would only suggest that you find a gun you can carry while rafting, Glock seems to come to mind. :smile:

In my book there is a time to verbalize and a time to shoot. I won't be doing both at the same time and I'm getting too old to be fighting with a bunch of young punks.

Biker :palmier:
 
#38 ·
I would stand off and just be a good witness, using my cellphone to take pictures and videos of it all. If they then turned on me I would then turn to my sidearm...
 
#40 ·
Are you saying that you would let it go so far as to let the mob attack the officer and just take pictures and video, even if they were beating the snot out of or possibly killing the officer?

Only getting involved if the group then turned on you. Am I reading this correctly?
 
#39 ·
You did very good by asking "need any help officer?" and waiting to see what he answered, and you did real good in stepping in to help when he said SURE.

Never draw your sidearm unless the office has, and has requested your help. You don't want him to
think your another BG.

The officer kept a cool head and did not escalate the situation by drawing his weapon.

Different states have different laws and procedures'. If I where you I'd look up your states policies regarding civilians with a CCL assisting officers.
 
#41 ·
The officer kept a cool head and did not escalate the situation by drawing his weapon.
Being a Federal LEO myself I have a suspicion why the officer didn't draw his weapon. Let me just say, the Feds would rather you be Killed In The Line Of Duty than to actually have you use appropriate tactics. :frown:

It will get good people killed.

Biker
 
#43 ·
BikerRN you are right on the money on this one. Many times I feel my agency would rather have me killed than have to deal with the hassle of me shooting someone, the investigation, DA's inquest, civil suit, etc. I believe there are many officers who have been killed because they waited too long to use deadly force. The preceding line of thought, foremost in their minds.
 
#53 ·
I'll stand by my original post.

20 - 1 odds and being chased by the crowd is "Time to draw and shoot" in my book.

Biker
 
#56 ·
Let me re-phrase: 20-1 odds is time to at least present weapon and be prepared to use it.

I may have been reading more in to the situation than there was, but I pictured people with sticks chasing the LEO and the LEO escaping being attacked by running. Sorry Charlie, but if that was the situation shots should've been fired.

Biker :palmier:
 
#55 ·
While it seems noble to come to the assistance of an officer, you are crossing over into the dark force here. In Tennessee, the only reason you can use your gun is that you feel you or a significant other (preferably related by blood) are in immediate danger of death or serious injury. As a retired Marine my first instinct would be to enter into a combat posture and rescue the officer. Unfortunately case law indicates that I am about to get into several serious problems.
If I voluntarily enter into the danger area, I am no longer in a self defense situation.
I am bringing my weapon into an existing possible gunfight.
I am engaging in an activity I could have avoided, thereby avoiding life threatening impact on me, the only person covered by self defense clause of my CCW.

The "Good Samaritan" laws do not cover CCW. I do know that case law has indicated that a civilian who becomes involved in a police situation is not protected by the same provisions of law that a LEO is. In short you are just entering into a fray like any other participant. I don't like it but it is the law. (I sat on a few civil juries covering this.)
Grand Jury would probably side in your favor but civil court is going to eat you up, if either the LEO or the BG get hurt because of any of your actions.

If you really read the law it only covers you if the BGs get by the LEO and come directly after you. Your CCW does not make you a sworn officer, just a John Q with a CCW.

The "to the assistance of others" implications of a CCW or HCP are encumbered with difficulties.
 
#57 ·
No disrespect to the many police officers on this forum, but I would have done precisely nothing to aid the officer. I may not have even called 911.

I do not believe it is a legitimate function of the police to arrest people who, even though perhaps intoxicated, are harming no one. Now, I'm sure I don't know the whole story, but unless the intoxicated man was being aggressive towards another person, the police officer was putting his nose where it doesn't belong. If the guy was ONLY intoxicated, he was well within his rights to resist aggression on the part of the police officer.

Sorry.

Mel
 
#59 ·
What???????
The last time I checked public intoxication is against the law and therefore it is the officers job to enforce such laws. And resisting the officer is asking to wake up being mighty sore the next day and well deserving of it!! Maybe you don't mind seeing drunks lying around your neck of the woods, but around my parts I don't want to have to deal with public drunks. You want to get drunk? Do it at home!! What happens when that poor drunk wanders out into traffic and a family of 6 hits him killing the occupants of the mini van, still feel sorry for the drunk?
The OP stated there was a large group of these mexicans approaching the officer with weapons in hand, hardly minding their own business!! The officer was doing his job, and didn't deserve a mob beating for it, I for one believe he should have cleared leather, but I wasn't there. I do know if I see an officer, or anyone for that matter in obvious need of help I am the type that is going to help, just the way I am. Obviously you would rather stand back and let this officer be injured or killed because you don't think he should of bothered the poor drunk! Very sad,

NCH
 
#58 ·
I woulda done what the OP did, most likely. I have no issues with that. And as far as my wife goes (we have no kids) she understands that we could lose our lives anytime anywhere, as we almost did in 2004. She knows I will risk mine to do whats right. She don't like it, but she knows.

In my book, LEO strap it on every day and risk it all, I don't have a problem assisting when/if needed. I don't go actively looking, as im not trained to do so, nor am I charged to perform those duties, but I wont just stand there.
 
#61 ·
If you diagree with a officers action you take it up with his C.O. or get a lawyer, you don't pick up a weapon and approach him, this is being stupid and deserving of getting a world of hurt put on you!!
Bottom line being drunk is public is illegal, if you don't like this law than go through the proper channels to change the law ( Good luck) the officer is simply doing his job of enforcing the law, he didn't make the law, his job is to enforce it, so arguing, complaining etc..... is a useless waist of time. The officer can't pick and choose which laws he enforces, he is required to enforce all of them. I can't even believe I am explaing this.
As for your scenario, "I don't go to Mexico" and if I found myself in a foreign country and would learn and follow the laws of that country, and at no time would I take up a weapon against a officer, as I said this is plain stupid!!

NCH
 
#63 · (Edited)
Originally Posted by Duisburg
I would stand off and just be a good witness, using my cellphone to take pictures and videos of it all. If they then turned on me I would then turn to my sidearm...
I've been a civlian employee in Law Enforcement for 25+ years and have found myself in the position of being the only help for one of my Officers several times. I am also a person with a disabiliy. I never once thought of just standing by and not helping. True I've gotten injured in the process a couple of times but I heal and both my Officers and I went home to our families.

I agree with so many posters here that LEO's put their lives on the line for me and my family everyday and I could NEVER live with myself if I simply watched or left the scene to learn later that the Officer had been injured or killed.

It is long past time that we "Citizens" stand up, or in my case "roll up" :rofl: for ourselves, our families and our communities.

Just my rant...rolling down the ramp off my soapbox now. :hand10:

**Edit - Oh and bgriffin70...well done and thank you. If it were one of my guys I'd have wanted someone like you to help.
 
#64 ·
Read the original post, folks. There were drugs and alcohol involved, and this was in a WA State Park, so NO ALCOHOL ALLOWED! Signs clearly note that all around the park. This is popular whitewater rafting area and picnic park, where obviously, drugs and alcohol are NOT welcome! The officer was doing his job in making the arrest for illegal substances in the park. In addition, the Hispanics were PURCHASING from this individual when the small riot began to unfold.
 
#66 ·
I still don't see the debate here over the officer making an arrest. :confused: :blink:

THIS IS A WASHINGTON STATE PARK. SIGNS POSTED EVERYWHERE, NO ALCOHOL ALLOWED !!!!! THERE WERE DRUGS, ALCOHOL, DRUGS BEING SOLD, and when the young man (LEO) attempted to apprehend one of them, the BG resisted, swung at him, attempted to flee, and got his face nailed with pepper spray. While that was going on, about ten plus other Hispanic males came running at the officer, some with sticks, motorcycle helmets, throwing rocks, all yelling at the officer to let their "buddy" go. When I observed this, this is when I got out of my vehicle and asked the officer if he would like any assistance and then all I did was try to keep the wolves at bay. Once they heard sirens en route, those wolves quickly sped off. The end.

So what is there to debate? :confused:
 
#67 ·
The line of thought looks simple to me. People don't view all laws and crimes the same. If a policeman wants to risk his life over apprehending a serial killer or someone who is sure to create another victim, I see it differently than a policeman risking his life over apprehending a jaywalker.

If I have that information, you can expect it to influence my willingness to put my own life at risk.

I can assure you that LEOs (and those who pay them) make those distinctions. It's not crazy to think citizens will also make those distinctions on their own, or have different conclusions than someone who signed up for a law enforcement job.

That's obviously different than watching a policeman get hammered. But if he has a choice to retreat and does not, it doesn't mean I'm obligated to put my life at risk.
 
#70 ·
It means only this: in a nation of laws, there is a time and place for everything. And, legal recourse via redress through the courts IS the recourse.
Trying to address your "point" at the roadside is an exercise in futility.

Biker :palmier:
 
#71 ·
I still don't see the debate here over the officer making an arrest.
That's because there is none. What is being debated is irrelevant.

You did the right thing. Sometimes doing the right things annoys people for one reason or another. You saw it, you called it, you had the courage to act upon it and you had made a difference. Don't let anyone here convince you of any less. I said it before and I'll say it again, you did a great job.You can cover my back anytime.
:congrats:

Carry on...:bier:
 
#74 ·
To answer the point regarding attempting to redress grievances about the government by going through the government...our system (representational republic) was designed to do just that. Is it perfect? No. However, attempting to resist the police who are just enforcing the laws put in place by the legislature is an exercise in futility.
I, personally, have arrested people for violating laws that I don't agree with. Just because I don't agree with the law doesn't mean I can pick and choose which I enforce and which I don't. No more than you have a choice about which laws you can obey and which you can't. If you don't like a law your proper forum for such a dispute is in the courtroom or by attempting to change law. Fighting with police is futility because they have no power to change the law, its content, or their constitutional duty to enforce it.
 
#78 ·
What is legal and what is not will depend on the laws of the state you live in. In Tennessee you are expected or even allowed to assist a police officer legally only if he asks for assistance. If he doesn't, you are interfering with an officer in conduct of his duty. In short you are now a BG. It's a sort of on-the-spot ipso facto deputization if the officer asks for assistance. You are still going to get sued for everything you've got, because you are not a sworn officer and the City/County/State is going to disavow any knowledge of your mission. The CCW does not make you a militia, it just gives you the right to defend yourself and your family from direct and imminent life threatening danger. As far as throwing your familly to the fire to be the hero, you are not directly responsible for the safety of a stranger but you are directly responsible for the safety of your family! You take care of them first. this isn't what is destroying the fabric of America. it is the opposite, it is fathers and mothers not taking care of their families. If you are alone and have no one to protect then do what you have to, we all will. But if you break the law doing it, the ranting against the government and ethics will not change the fact you broke the law and are going to receive the punishment due a criminal. If you feel an overwhelming compulsion to get into the fray, run back and lock up your gun in the trunk, grab a club and go at it. If you use the gun, you must follow the letter of the law. The state assumes when it issues a CCW that the bearer is a law abiding citizen, be one! I served 30 years in the USMC and 6 years in Viet Nam. I do not consider it cowardice to consider my family's safety first, I consider it my duty as a father!

I do not carry to be a masked crusader and defender of the weak or a pseudo LEO. I carry to protect myself and my family. If that means removing them from the arena of action, then I will remove them. the gun stays holstered and I hide my wife and kids from danger.
 
#79 ·
Well, I did receive a letter in the mail today from the State of Washington !!!
The letter states that they are thankful for me stepping in when this officer was clearly outnumbered, and that they feel me doing so helped avoid a potential "deadly use of force" situtation the officer might have resorted to if the situation had not toned down when it did.

The officer suffered quite a few injuries, but is okay. The BG is still in custody on felony drug, alcohol, resisting, assault, etc. etc. charges.

It made me feel good to receive that letter, and I'm happy things turned out okay, the way they SHOULD be... with the BG sitting in jail, possibly for a LONG time !!!
 
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