Aiding an Officer - What would you do? - Page 2

Aiding an Officer - What would you do?

This is a discussion on Aiding an Officer - What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, let me throw in a hypothetical here... and I can certainly see where this could happen... The officer is on top of the guy ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Okay, let me throw in a hypothetical here... and I can certainly see where this could happen...

    The officer is on top of the guy he has in custody. He's trying to avoid confrontations with others while he keeps the BG under control. For some reason, he did NOT have handcuffs.

    So let's say that while I was intervening here, and things had NOT gone well, say three or four come at me with a knife or a stick, etc. etc. - the officer is pre-occupied with his keeping control of BG #1, what THEN? I'm not much of a "fist-to-cuffs" fighter, and I'll openly admit that, so 4-5 guys on me would no doubt whoop my backside and perhaps attempt to take my gun or worse?
    Last edited by Scott; August 14th, 2008 at 06:12 PM. Reason: profanity workaround


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Bottom line ? I have been that officer you speak of , I have depended on you and other folk like you to " keep them off my back " . You did fine , in fact more than you could be expected to . In fact you earned a " gimme " ( pm me because my definition is not pc nor maby appropriate ) lol . Suffice it to say you stepped in when you needed not , and frankly unless and untill pics are taken of you in bed with either a goat , a boy , or god forbid an under aged goat well your all good . all that matters here is that you stepped up . The RO may be a piece of work , and that dont matter . You helped and no one got a butt kickin in any fashon . you did good , this dont mean you get a pass but if someone recognises your name it may well mean that you dont set on a curb in cuffs explaining yourself at a later date .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  3. #18
    Member Array Sig sauer's Avatar
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    I think you did a great job. Also very professional of you to clearly state that you were there to help!

    Quote Originally Posted by bgriffin70 View Post
    LEOs... retired, full time, part time.......... any thoughts on how YOU would prefer someone come to your aid, rather than running at you with a handgun saying, "I'm the good guy, I'm the good guy." ?????
    I remember one time when I was struggling with a BG on the ground outside my patrol car. I had taken him down to the ground and was sitting on him, trying to make him stop resisting and cuff him.

    I noticed a guy circling me on my left. As I was on the ground he was bent down and was about 30 feet away from me, with a badge in his hand. It was a plain clothes officer that had seen me and had stopped his car about 50 feet behind me. He then walked up to me, but instead of walking up on me from behind, he took a wide angle to approach me from my front. While he was doing this he was holding his badge in his hand, in plain view, for me to see it. After getting my attention, he asked if I needed help before approaching me. I'm very glad he did this and not coming up from behind. This is how I would like it to be handled.

    In violent situation you often get tunnel vision. You concentrate on the BG and the threat. Therefor you might think that someone sees you when you walk towards him, but he don't. It is very important that you make sure that the officer sees you and make clear that you are there to help, before approaching him. And always try to approach him from his front.

    After you had confirmation from him that he understands who you are and wants your help, you can approach him. NEVER draw your gun before you are 100% sure that the officers knows that you are there to help.

  4. #19
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    Speak loudly and clearly. If there is a struggle and the perp and officer are doing the dirt dance, then you may have to shout it out several times before you get his attention.

    Use your head here. The officer doesn't have a clue of your intentions. You know you are a good guy trying to help, but he doesn't.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #20
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Alright, now before you guys laugh, just hear me out for this situation only. I want to emphasize beforehand, that this idea of a Concealed Carry Badge - wearing it in the open, is silly - and most of all, what's the purpose identifying yourself to everyone that you're carrying?

    But, in THIS type of situation, would approaching the officer while showing a badge and announcing your intent to help/asking if he/she needs help, perhaps would give them one little ounce of tension ease?

    And obviously, like you guys have said and I totally agree, absolutely NEVER draw the gun unless it was immediately life threatening upon the officer or the yourself !!!!!

  6. #21
    Member Array Sig sauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgriffin70 View Post
    Alright, now before you guys laugh, just hear me out for this situation only. I want to emphasize beforehand, that this idea of a Concealed Carry Badge - wearing it in the open, is silly - and most of all, what's the purpose identifying yourself to everyone that you're carrying?

    But, in THIS type of situation, would approaching the officer while showing a badge and announcing your intent to help/asking if he/she needs help, perhaps would give them one little ounce of tension ease?

    And obviously, like you guys have said and I totally agree, absolutely NEVER draw the gun unless it was immediately life threatening upon the officer or the yourself !!!!!
    To me a badge would indicate a fellow officer. If you are not an officer, then the whole badge thing is a bad idea. It's better to just state that you wanna help.

  7. #22
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    Good point on the badge thing. I guess I'm thinking the scenario out in my mind again and thinking about all the things that "could have" gone wrong!

  8. #23
    Member Array bgriffin70's Avatar
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    For instance, what if this poor kid had been lying on the ground being beaten by two or three of these "thugs?" Obviously, call 911 is #1 priority. Next, do you try to intervene as I did or do you stand by and avoid getting yourself perhaps hurt as well? Tough one to answer. No perfect answer for sure!

    Secondly, what if the LEO officer has been beaten to the point he finally gets to drawing his weapon. Suddenly, he sees me heading toward him with two boat ores in my hands. If he starts double tapping in order to save his life from a crowd of trash, what's going to stop him from thinking I'm coming after him as well?

    I'M HAPPY IT WORKED OUT THE WAY IT DID. I'M HAPPY I DID WHAT I DID, AND WOULD DO IT AGAIN IF IN THAT SITUATION. I could not live with myself having known I fled from helping an officer in need. I'm happy the young man (LEO) is okay and still get a chuckle knowing I watched a 20-something year old whoop this 6+ foot, 250 pound + BG like a rented mule! :-)

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Tough call, I would probably do the same thing you did. Being with your family makes it a much tougher call.
    Makes it much simpler, to my way of thinking. NOTHING trumps my family's safety. Nothing.

    Now, being out there without my family makes things quite different.

    If known that ~20 individuals with weapons was coming to assist their homey in escaping a legal arrest, being "armed" with an 8ft paddle seems a just a tad optimistic. At best, it's likely to inflame the passions of 20 people who now wish me damaged. It also brings another weapon to the fight, as I'm highly likely to be disarmed with those odds. I seriously don't believe I'd intervene physically with only a stick in hand (particularly considering I'm partially disabled [hip/leg]).

    A firearm's a different calculus. Had things reached the level of lethal threat, I might well have brought it to bear in defense of the officer. Depends on the situation's urgency. Depends on whether it's crystal clear what's going on. Seemingly, you had a good understanding of the situation and players. That's one mark in favor of going in. Though, as it turns out, in this case the officer himself didn't appear to think it justified lethal force to contain. So, who's to say. I wasn't there at that instant.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  10. #25
    Member Array Sig sauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgriffin70 View Post
    Good point on the badge thing. I guess I'm thinking the scenario out in my mind again and thinking about all the things that "could have" gone wrong!

    A lot of things could have gone wrong, but fortunately it didn't . What you did was very courageous. Your family was in the car and was safe. The one who needed help was the officer and you helped him. We need more people like you.

    Many of us just think about ourself and our closest friends or family. But I could never just stand and watch while someone get beaten. It doesn't matter if I know him or not. He needs help.

    You didn't know if you could handle the situation or if you get hurt but you stepped up. You still offered your help, that was very courageous and you probably saved that LEO from a beating or having to shoot them.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Makes it much simpler, to my way of thinking. NOTHING trumps my family's safety. Nothing.

    Now, being out there without my family makes things quite different.

    If known that ~20 individuals with weapons was coming to assist their homey in escaping a legal arrest, being "armed" with an 8ft paddle seems a just a tad optimistic. At best, it's likely to inflame the passions of 20 people who now wish me damaged. It also brings another weapon to the fight, as I'm highly likely to be disarmed with those odds. I seriously don't believe I'd intervene physically with only a stick in hand (particularly considering I'm partially disabled [hip/leg]).

    A firearm's a different calculus. Had things reached the level of lethal threat, I might well have brought it to bear in defense of the officer. Depends on the situation's urgency. Depends on whether it's crystal clear what's going on. Seemingly, you had a good understanding of the situation and players. That's one mark in favor of going in. Though, as it turns out, in this case the officer himself didn't appear to think it justified lethal force to contain. So, who's to say. I wasn't there at that instant.
    I am not disabled and am in pretty good shape...with a wooden oar, against some guys with sticks, I think I will do alright. I would have had my EDC and a knife, also.

    I'll take my training and the officers training against the other guys...might be long odds considering the numbers, but I would still give it my best shot. As far as the family, the OP mentioned they were in separate vehicles and his family was safe.

    The officer goes to bat for me every day he puts on his badge. I'll take my chances. In the case the OP presented, it was very obvious that the officer was in a very bad situation, and the OP approached cautiously and did not make the situation worse.

    All we can hope is that we can do as well if that time ever becomes necessary.(and yes, I've been there and done that, and would do it again)

    The OP is exactly right. The streets (and the parks) don't belong to the thugs and miscreants. Sometimes us average Joes have to step in to balance things out. I owe it to my grandchildren to leave them a world that does not involve buckling under to a few thugs.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgriffin70 View Post
    Not as clear-cut as the title reads, so let me explain and ask what would you do, or if anything, how would you do it differently, the same, etc?????

    So I'm out with the family late yesterday at a Washington state park, enjoying a little river rafting, picnic, etc. As we load up to leave, I'm pulling out of my parking space, and very few cars are left. Immediately, I hear someone yelling "down on the ground, down on the ground." I look over and see a Park Ranger attempting to apprehend a rather large guy who is taking swings at him and trying to flee. The officer pepper sprays the BG. BG continues to fight but finally falls to the ground.

    The frightening part of this is that, suddenly, about 15-20 Hispanic males come running towards the officer with sticks, motorcycle helmets, etc.; yelling at the officer that their "friend" did nothing and to get off of him. I fear for this young officer's life, so my instincts kick in and I jump out to go aid him. I try to reason with the Hispanic males to not obstruct or intefere with the arrest or they will go to jail as well. I also arm myself with the ONLY thing I have... two paddle ores from the raft I was using. * Stupid me - I ran off and realized, the one time I may very well be needing my handgun, I forgot the damn thing!

    Oh well, with ores in hand, I'm trying to reason with a rather large group of individuals. Keep in mind, we are at a rural state park several minutes away from small town law enforcement or the King County S.O.

    Bottom line, the BG was arrested and taken into custody for intoxication, drug posession, resisting, assaulting an officer, etc. etc. It took about 15 minutes before any assistance showed up for this guy - seemed much longer though!

    My question is... what would YOU have done? Realizing you were without your gun, would you have still got out to help? I do know that 911 was called as my wife did so. In addition, the officer was in radio contact. The officer did have a 9mm handgun, but NEVER drew down!!! When he was being chased by this large group of males, carrying sticks and helmets yelling at him, I'm very surprised of his composure NOT to draw. Thoughts ???

    Again, what would YOU do? What would you differently - besides NOT forget your dang gun (stupid me).

    What I would have done is assist the officer and have my family drive to a safer area and call 911. Sometimes back-up is a long way off.
    One more step and it's on!

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    I don't see how anyone can say they would drive away. I am a woman and having been a Paramedic in a large Metro area.....I wouldn't have driven off.
    I don't think I could sleep at night showing that kind of cowardice .....yeah....I know...."I had my family with me." Whatever lets you sleep at night, but how could you expect help if needed, if you make excuses for not helping others....especially a officer. You did a great job helping the officer......good for you. Sleep well, you deserve it.
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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    I wouldn't have driven off.

    I don't think I could sleep at night showing that kind of cowardice
    Be careful about labeling as "cowardice" the defense of one's family. Everyone does indeed have a differing level of commitment to family, particularly if they're on-scene. But obviously my suggesting you feel nothing towards yours simply because of your rationale would be going way too far. Caution is due.

    ... if you make excuses for not helping others...
    My family is the one reason (not excuse) that trumps all others. If I can be reasonably assured they could defend themselves while I left to take responsibility for a situation gone sideways, that's one thing. If they were likely to get killed right along with me (in retribution by the 20 armed thugs), then what's the point?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #30
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    I think I would have helped him get the guy in the car faster, so we could all exit the situation. Open the trunk, shove him in (dont' shut lid) ... drive off.... a mile down the road can pull him out and put him inside the car.

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