Aiding an Officer - What would you do?

This is a discussion on Aiding an Officer - What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Duisburg Well allow me to clarify it The Cop was armed too (presuming I was there carrying) and knew what he could ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duisburg View Post
    Well allow me to clarify it

    The Cop was armed too (presuming I was there carrying) and knew what he could and couldn't do. There for IF he wasn't going to defend himself against an armed group when he could have then why should I jump in and add to the chaos? My instructor advised me to just be a good witness in these types of cases and it makes too much sense to me.

    Now if we are talking about an unarmed civilian being attacked then I am going to react, that is for sure, but how I will react and with what depends on the situation.

    I would sleep well at night and live with myself as well.
    There are many officers in the field today that lack the ability to actually fire on another human being. Just because they go through a brief period of training, ( more in other areas than some) doesn't mean he or she is Robo Cop!!! One never knows if they can actually fire on another human being until the time actually comes, despite the macho remarks of many on gun forums. The taking of a life should never be something that one looks forward to or braggs about. But enough chasing rabbits here, so let's just say the officer freezes up for whatever reason and fails to draw his weapon and defend himself, you would stand back and let this officer be injured or killed by the bad guys. It's almost like you are saying "he deserves what he gets" and you go on to say that you would have no problem sleeping at night.
    I truly hope I have you all wrong and totally misunderstood you, because I for one could not do the same. I am no super hero, but I do stand for what's right. My first priority is to my family, once they are safe and out of harms way I will do my best to help anyone that is in need, armed or not.



    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The LEO in question didn't even draw his own firearm. I'm assuming he knew the crowd was assembling. Who's saying he was at immediate risk of death or dismemberment?
    We are talking what if's now and assuming what was actually taking place on the scene, not necissarily what actually happened as none of use were there. It's just one of those ifinite "what if's" we go over on this forum.

    NCH
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    NCHornet

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    There are many officers in the field today that lack the ability to actually fire on another human being. Just because they go through a brief period of training, ( more in other areas than some) doesn't mean he or she is Robo Cop!!! One never knows if they can actually fire on another human being until the time actually comes, despite the macho remarks of many on gun forums. The taking of a life should never be something that one looks forward to or braggs about. But enough chasing rabbits here, so let's just say the officer freezes up for whatever reason and fails to draw his weapon and defend himself, you would stand back and let this officer be injured or killed by the bad guys. It's almost like you are saying "he deserves what he gets" and you go on to say that you would have no problem sleeping at night.
    I truly hope I have you all wrong and totally misunderstood you, because I for one could not do the same. I am no super hero, but I do stand for what's right. My first priority is to my family, once they are safe and out of harms way I will do my best to help anyone that is in need, armed or not.

    NCH
    I agree. Assuming the officer had not frozen up, and assuming the OP did not help out, the officer would have been forced to draw his weapon. The fact that the OP helped out allowed everything to be resolved without any shots fired.

    As far as whether the officer should have drawn or not, it seems to me that the fact that everything worked out, without gunfire, leads credence to the fact that a gun was not absolutely necessary.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I am not disabled and am in pretty good shape...with a wooden oar, against some guys with sticks, I think I will do alright. I would have had my EDC and a knife, also.

    I'll take my training and the officers training against the other guys...might be long odds considering the numbers, but I would still give it my best shot. As far as the family, the OP mentioned they were in separate vehicles and his family was safe.

    The officer goes to bat for me every day he puts on his badge. I'll take my chances. In the case the OP presented, it was very obvious that the officer was in a very bad situation, and the OP approached cautiously and did not make the situation worse.

    All we can hope is that we can do as well if that time ever becomes necessary.(and yes, I've been there and done that, and would do it again)

    The OP is exactly right. The streets (and the parks) don't belong to the thugs and miscreants. Sometimes us average Joes have to step in to balance things out. I owe it to my grandchildren to leave them a world that does not involve buckling under to a few thugs.
    +1 again
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    Dude, you had your family with you. Not the time to jump into harms way. At least tell the wife to drive away and not look back if you're feeling suicidally valiant. I understand completely wanting to help a officer, but:

    a) not with the family. I just can't justify endangering many to save 1.
    b) probably? not unarmed
    +1

    Cupcake said EXACTLY what I was thinking.

    The only thing I would have done differently is, I would have had my gun in the car. I can honestly say, that is the one thing I have not ever forgotten. My keys, yes. My wallet, a few times, my company ID with door access card, yep. My gun, no....I somehow always remember it.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    There are many officers in the field today that lack the ability to actually fire on another human being.

    But enough chasing rabbits here, so let's just say the officer freezes up for whatever reason and fails to draw his weapon and defend himself, you would stand back and let this officer be injured or killed by the bad guys.

    It's almost like you are saying "he deserves what he gets"
    I truly hope I have you all wrong and totally misunderstood you, because I for one could not do the same. I am no super hero, but I do stand for what's right.

    My first priority is to my family, once they are safe and out of harms way I will do my best to help anyone that is in need, armed or not.
    I think that you DO misunderstand me. I do not think that just because I am allowed to carry a firearm makes me the protector of the world and puts me upon a pedistool with that of a cop. I am not a cop, what cops do is based upon their training, schooling and knowledge of what is right and wrong according to the law. I do not have that and as such I would trust that the cop would have the situation under control and question the likelyhood of my interferance (good as it may be) as being helpful. I'm not going to rush into the hospital and perform surguries because I thought it would save a life and because I own a scalpel, I would let the surgeon do that because he is trained, has the skills, knowledge and tools to save lives.

    I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth by saying: "It's almost like you are saying 'he deserves what he gets'" because I really do respect and appreciate what cops do on a daily basis. I know some cops personally and generally do respect the vast majority of them. Just take a deep breath and relax on your assumptions about how you think I think, ok? No harm, no foul.


    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The LEO in question didn't even draw his own firearm. I'm assuming he knew the crowd was assembling. Who's saying he was at immediate risk of death or dismemberment?

    I agree with you 100% and add that me jumping into the whole mess with or without a gun would add more chaos to the situation and potentially confuse, delay or prevent the cop from reacting.
    Last edited by Duisburg; August 3rd, 2008 at 04:45 PM. Reason: spelling
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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array rdoggsilva's Avatar
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    You did right nothing to be ashamed about. I would have done the same thing.
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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Being a Federal LEO myself I have a suspicion why the officer didn't draw his weapon. Let me just say, the Feds would rather you be Killed In The Line Of Duty than to actually have you use appropriate tactics.

    It will get good people killed.
    Not cool at all, and I'd rather see smarter policy. As I was reading this thread, I was trying to figure out if the officer was unable to draw effectively or thought it not prudent.

    As far as aiding him... with or without a firearm, that kinda matters a lot. Without seeing everything as it was happening for the OP, I can hardly tell what was happening. It sounds like speaking spanish was the most important thing here.


    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The LEO in question didn't even draw his own firearm. I'm assuming he knew the crowd was assembling. Who's saying he was at immediate risk of death or dismemberment?

    Well, yeah, that's what I was kind of saying above. If he had the option of introducing that element and wasn't doing it, then I have to wonder why. I can assume he doesn't want me introducing that element if he is able and unwilling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duisburg View Post
    I am not a cop, what cops do is based upon their training, schooling and knowledge of what is right and wrong according to the law. I do not have that and as such I would trust that the cop would have the situation under control and question the likelyhood of my interferance (good as it may be) as being helpful. I'm not going to rush into the hospital and perform surguries because I thought it would save a life and because I own a scalpel, I would let the surgeon do that because he is trained, has the skills, knowledge and tools to save lives.

    I also have those concerns. If an officer wants to go up against 20 people with his baton only, I'm not obligated to assume his level of risk just because he happens to be nearby.

    If he asks for help, that's a different story.

    If he's obviously in need of help and he or I feels his life is in danger, that's a different story.

    If he has an option to retreat and does not, does everyone here think it's my duty to risk my life as he is choosing to risk his? If so, I don't think I agree, particularly when I have zero facts regarding the situation.

  9. #53
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I'll stand by my original post.

    20 - 1 odds and being chased by the crowd is "Time to draw and shoot" in my book.

    Biker

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimThomas View Post

    If he asks for help, that's a different story.

    If he's obviously in need of help and he or I feels his life is in danger, that's a different story.
    I agree 100%

    If the cop ASKS me for help then absolutely I would help, otherwise I feel that I would hender him and his ability by adding to the chaos.
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    While it seems noble to come to the assistance of an officer, you are crossing over into the dark force here. In Tennessee, the only reason you can use your gun is that you feel you or a significant other (preferably related by blood) are in immediate danger of death or serious injury. As a retired Marine my first instinct would be to enter into a combat posture and rescue the officer. Unfortunately case law indicates that I am about to get into several serious problems.
    If I voluntarily enter into the danger area, I am no longer in a self defense situation.
    I am bringing my weapon into an existing possible gunfight.
    I am engaging in an activity I could have avoided, thereby avoiding life threatening impact on me, the only person covered by self defense clause of my CCW.

    The "Good Samaritan" laws do not cover CCW. I do know that case law has indicated that a civilian who becomes involved in a police situation is not protected by the same provisions of law that a LEO is. In short you are just entering into a fray like any other participant. I don't like it but it is the law. (I sat on a few civil juries covering this.)
    Grand Jury would probably side in your favor but civil court is going to eat you up, if either the LEO or the BG get hurt because of any of your actions.

    If you really read the law it only covers you if the BGs get by the LEO and come directly after you. Your CCW does not make you a sworn officer, just a John Q with a CCW.

    The "to the assistance of others" implications of a CCW or HCP are encumbered with difficulties.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  12. #56
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I'll stand by my original post.

    20 - 1 odds and being chased by the crowd is "Time to draw and shoot" in my book.

    Biker

    Let me re-phrase: 20-1 odds is time to at least present weapon and be prepared to use it.

    I may have been reading more in to the situation than there was, but I pictured people with sticks chasing the LEO and the LEO escaping being attacked by running. Sorry Charlie, but if that was the situation shots should've been fired.

    Biker

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    No disrespect to the many police officers on this forum, but I would have done precisely nothing to aid the officer. I may not have even called 911.

    I do not believe it is a legitimate function of the police to arrest people who, even though perhaps intoxicated, are harming no one. Now, I'm sure I don't know the whole story, but unless the intoxicated man was being aggressive towards another person, the police officer was putting his nose where it doesn't belong. If the guy was ONLY intoxicated, he was well within his rights to resist aggression on the part of the police officer.

    Sorry.

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  14. #58
    Senior Member Array Saint77's Avatar
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    I woulda done what the OP did, most likely. I have no issues with that. And as far as my wife goes (we have no kids) she understands that we could lose our lives anytime anywhere, as we almost did in 2004. She knows I will risk mine to do whats right. She don't like it, but she knows.

    In my book, LEO strap it on every day and risk it all, I don't have a problem assisting when/if needed. I don't go actively looking, as im not trained to do so, nor am I charged to perform those duties, but I wont just stand there.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmel View Post
    No disrespect to the many police officers on this forum, but I would have done precisely nothing to aid the officer. I may not have even called 911.

    I do not believe it is a legitimate function of the police to arrest people who, even though perhaps intoxicated, are harming no one. Now, I'm sure I don't know the whole story, but unless the intoxicated man was being aggressive towards another person, the police officer was putting his nose where it doesn't belong. If the guy was ONLY intoxicated, he was well within his rights to resist aggression on the part of the police officer.

    Sorry.

    Mel

    What???????
    The last time I checked public intoxication is against the law and therefore it is the officers job to enforce such laws. And resisting the officer is asking to wake up being mighty sore the next day and well deserving of it!! Maybe you don't mind seeing drunks lying around your neck of the woods, but around my parts I don't want to have to deal with public drunks. You want to get drunk? Do it at home!! What happens when that poor drunk wanders out into traffic and a family of 6 hits him killing the occupants of the mini van, still feel sorry for the drunk?
    The OP stated there was a large group of these mexicans approaching the officer with weapons in hand, hardly minding their own business!! The officer was doing his job, and didn't deserve a mob beating for it, I for one believe he should have cleared leather, but I wasn't there. I do know if I see an officer, or anyone for that matter in obvious need of help I am the type that is going to help, just the way I am. Obviously you would rather stand back and let this officer be injured or killed because you don't think he should of bothered the poor drunk! Very sad,

    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    What???????
    The last time I checked public intoxication is against the law and therefore it is the officers job to enforce such laws. And resisting the officer is asking to wake up being mighty sore the next day and well deserving of it!! Maybe you don't mind seeing drunks lying around your neck of the woods, but around my parts I don't want to have to deal with public drunks. You want to get drunk? Do it at home!! What happens when that poor drunk wanders out into traffic and a family of 6 hits him killing the occupants of the mini van, still feel sorry for the drunk?
    The OP stated there was a large group of these mexicans approaching the officer with weapons in hand, hardly minding their own business!! The officer was doing his job, and didn't deserve a mob beating for it, I for one believe he should have cleared leather, but I wasn't there. I do know if I see an officer, or anyone for that matter in obvious need of help I am the type that is going to help, just the way I am. Obviously you would rather stand back and let this officer be injured or killed because you don't think he should of bothered the poor drunk! Very sad,

    NCH
    I'm starting to see that the difference between my point of view and many others is that just because I believe something is stupid, annoying, or unadvisable, doesn't mean that the police should be paid to arrest people for it. I agree it is against the law to be intoxicated in public, I'm just not sure it should be. It's illegal to own certain types of guns in certain parts of our fine, free country. Should it be? Many here would say no.

    As far as I'm concerned, until the moment that you injure, rob, or threaten another person, you have not done anything deserving police attention. As for having drunks lying around all over the place, that doesn't follow at all. There are tons of things that are not illegal that you hardly ever see people doing in public.

    As for the armed buddies, consider their point of view. They were just coming to the aid of their friend against what they believed to be an unjust arrest. They even said he didn't do anything wrong. Clearly they believed the officer had no justification for his actions, hence their actions. Now, they may have been right or wrong, but that's their point of view.

    Let's say you're in Mexico, drinking and having a good time. One of your buddies starts to get harassed by a Mexican police officer. Whose side will you take?

    We've taken, in the US, to proclaiming undesirable actions illegal and thereby we create criminals where before there were only normal people making silly decisions.

    Mel
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