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Aiding an Officer - What would you do?

6K views 79 replies 35 participants last post by  NCHornet 
#1 ·
Not as clear-cut as the title reads, so let me explain and ask what would you do, or if anything, how would you do it differently, the same, etc?????

So I'm out with the family late yesterday at a Washington state park, enjoying a little river rafting, picnic, etc. As we load up to leave, I'm pulling out of my parking space, and very few cars are left. Immediately, I hear someone yelling "down on the ground, down on the ground." I look over and see a Park Ranger attempting to apprehend a rather large guy who is taking swings at him and trying to flee. The officer pepper sprays the BG. BG continues to fight but finally falls to the ground.

The frightening part of this is that, suddenly, about 15-20 Hispanic males come running towards the officer with sticks, motorcycle helmets, etc.; yelling at the officer that their "friend" did nothing and to get off of him. I fear for this young officer's life, so my instincts kick in and I jump out to go aid him. I try to reason with the Hispanic males to not obstruct or intefere with the arrest or they will go to jail as well. I also arm myself with the ONLY thing I have... two paddle ores from the raft I was using. * Stupid me - I ran off and realized, the one time I may very well be needing my handgun, I forgot the damn thing!

Oh well, with ores in hand, I'm trying to reason with a rather large group of individuals. Keep in mind, we are at a rural state park several minutes away from small town law enforcement or the King County S.O.

Bottom line, the BG was arrested and taken into custody for intoxication, drug posession, resisting, assaulting an officer, etc. etc. It took about 15 minutes before any assistance showed up for this guy - seemed much longer though!

My question is... what would YOU have done? Realizing you were without your gun, would you have still got out to help? I do know that 911 was called as my wife did so. In addition, the officer was in radio contact. The officer did have a 9mm handgun, but NEVER drew down!!! When he was being chased by this large group of males, carrying sticks and helmets yelling at him, I'm very surprised of his composure NOT to draw. Thoughts ???

Again, what would YOU do? What would you differently - besides NOT forget your dang gun (stupid me).
 
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#2 ·
Tough call, I would probably do the same thing you did. Being with your family makes it a much tougher call.

As far as a gun goes, I don't know. Even if I had my carry weapon, if the officer didn't draw, I would be hard pressed to draw.

What did the officer have to say about the way you handled it/helped out?
 
#24 ·
Tough call, I would probably do the same thing you did. Being with your family makes it a much tougher call.
Makes it much simpler, to my way of thinking. NOTHING trumps my family's safety. Nothing.

Now, being out there without my family makes things quite different.

If known that ~20 individuals with weapons was coming to assist their homey in escaping a legal arrest, being "armed" with an 8ft paddle seems a just a tad optimistic. At best, it's likely to inflame the passions of 20 people who now wish me damaged. It also brings another weapon to the fight, as I'm highly likely to be disarmed with those odds. I seriously don't believe I'd intervene physically with only a stick in hand (particularly considering I'm partially disabled [hip/leg]).

A firearm's a different calculus. Had things reached the level of lethal threat, I might well have brought it to bear in defense of the officer. Depends on the situation's urgency. Depends on whether it's crystal clear what's going on. Seemingly, you had a good understanding of the situation and players. That's one mark in favor of going in. Though, as it turns out, in this case the officer himself didn't appear to think it justified lethal force to contain. So, who's to say. I wasn't there at that instant.
 
#4 ·
Dude, you had your family with you. Not the time to jump into harms way. At least tell the wife to drive away and not look back if you're feeling suicidally valiant. I understand completely wanting to help a officer, but:

a) not with the family. I just can't justify endangering many to save 1.
b) probably? not unarmed
 
#49 ·
+1

Cupcake said EXACTLY what I was thinking.

The only thing I would have done differently is, I would have had my gun in the car. I can honestly say, that is the one thing I have not ever forgotten. My keys, yes. My wallet, a few times, my company ID with door access card, yep. My gun, no....I somehow always remember it.
 
#5 ·
Last summer one of our National Forest LEO's went to a loud noise complaint at a remote but popular campsite. It was a complaint because it was after 10PM, when all noise was suppose to cease.

So he gets there and confronts a dozen very drunk illegals. He tells them to throttle it down and gets jumped from behind by one of them. The fight is on and he takes out his ASP and beats the guy down. Same thing...the others wanted to jump in and intervene. He ended up drawing down on them all and telling them to get back.

Luckily, it ended up OK. The officer had some knots and bruises on him, the illegal ended up going to the ER.

Because of that incident, much attention was given to that particular area by the Sheriffs and the AG&F as well as the NFS LEO's. In one particular event, over 100 illegals were arrested for various things. One of them was a fugitive wanted for murder and the US Marshals came and got him the next day.

First of all, I would ask if he needs assistance. If he requests help, in most states you are legally covered...but only if he asks.
If he does, you will follow his lead or instruction.

If you are severely outnumbered, you had better be ready to shoot. Anything carried in the hand, whether it be a stick,rock,boat paddle or even a lawn chair can be considered a weapon if the intent to harm is there. I would think that someone running to aid one of their buddies with something in their hand that they could use as a weapon would cover the intent angle.

Some illegals know that they can be hard to find and will use this to their advantage. They can be dangerous and must be treated accordingly. Some of them wont be caught, no matter what they have done.

edited to add:

In some areas such as the one above, backup is virtually non- existant. In this case it would have been over 30 minutes away. For those that have ever been in a violent fight, 30 minutes is an eternity. Fact of the matter is, if you witness an event like that, YOU may be the only chance that an officer has of staying alive.

Dont ever forget that.
If you stand back and watch and dont intervene, you'll have to live with the consequences for the rest of your life. It may turn out all right, or it might not.

As for being with family...the way I raised my family, they would expect me to intervene and I am quite sure that they would too if I didnt call them off.
 
#7 ·
You did the right thing. Your family was safe in the car and could easily have driven away to protect themselves if need be. Some here may disagree, but I am not one to watch as an Officer of the law faces off against a mob of angry, armed men.

If you had not intervened he may well have never made it home that day.

So, again, I commend you on your willingness to help an officer in need.

Matt:congrats:
 
#8 ·
Of Course.

With or without my weapon I would have done what you did even if my family was with me. She can bug out with the auto if things turn out that bad. Next time just don't leave you gun at home. :ahhhhh:

I agree, that if the officer didn't need to draw his weapon then you didn't need to either, unless something was going on that he was not aware of. If one of the crowd members had pulled a gun knife and was about to attack the officer, then maybe you would need to use yours, but only after letting the officer know that this type of weapon had been deployed.

Good job. Did the officer say anything to you after he got the BG situated?
 
#9 ·
Kudos to you

You did a good thing. The only thought I consider is, even if I was in trouble (as he was) if a stranger came running up to me with gun drawn??? how would I react. Who is the bad guy? now I will definitely draw my weapon, but I don't mean to disrespect you but how do I know your not with the BGs? You did the right thing, it;s alot to consider when comming to PDs aid.
Sgt:congrats:
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks for the comments, everyone.

To answer some specific questions and for better clarification...

1. My wife and kids were actually in a different vehicle. We were using two because we were rafting the river (one at put in, one at take out).

2. I did immediately get out but walked very cautiously toward the officer and immediately stated that I was here to assist, I had my CPL, but did not have a weapon on me. He saw that I had the ores and simply asked me to keep everyone back and try to continue talking with them to calm the crowd. I speak a little Spanish, so I was able to communicate to them that many police were on their way, and if they continued stepping towards or yelling at the officer, they would also go to jail, or perhaps worse! After about a minute or so, most of them hauled after gathering up their alcohol and whatever else they had. Due to the long time in backup arriving, I assume all the others got away and are now in hiding, as typical. (sigh)

3. The wife actually DID keep driving. Which to this point, that becomes a more personal matter. She was very angry, basically saying I had "no business." Perhaps she was afraid of me getting hurt, but even in trying to explain to her, what would you have preferred me to do, drive off and later learn that this LEO perhaps was killed in the line of duty, and I did NOTHING ???
I could not live with myself !!! It's damn high time we take our Country back and make a loud and bold balls statement that bringing that gang crap, drugs, etc. is not going to make us law-abiding citizens run and hide and become prisoners in our own homes !!!!! Oops - sorry, got off on more of a political rant there.

What I find most amazing out of all of this is that this little guy, and I do mean this park ranger probably weighed no more than 140 lbs; he never drew his weapon even when being punched by the BG and chased by about a dozen more with sticks, helmets, rocks being thrown, etc. Maybe I'd be wrong in doing so, but if I were in his shoes, I'd have drawn down long before... and the way they kept charging at him trying to push him down until I ran up there with boat ores, If that'd been me, I might be sitting in jail awaiting an investigation of self defense. The kid sure kept a collected head through the whole ordeal.
 
#11 ·
Good note as well... this is why I slowly approached the officer, with hands clearly visible, and loudly speaking to him that I AM HERE TO HELP, what would you like me to do?

BTW - the King County SO, Black Diamond PD and the Park Ranger himself all thanked me and shook my hand. One officer (not a park ranger) said if it had been him, things might not have been handled so smoothly!

That is a good point above... how do you approach to AID an officer, if you were to have come running with gun in hand? Probably would have not made the kid feel very good, nor me either!

Thoughts ??? Experiences like this before ???
 
#14 ·
I'm thinking that stopping outside the conflict area (10 yards away or so) and shouting, "Leave the officer alone!" would be a good starting point.

It'd notify the officer that there was someone else present who is on his side, and it'd notify the others that there was a witness present (as well as someone who MIGHT intercede).

You might also add a verbal bluff to the effect that an unseen ally of yours is videotaping the whole thing.
 
#15 ·
Definitely a good idea to notify the officer before you jump into the fracas. But it sounds like you did good.

Yelling, officer I'm a Marine, do you need a hand? Would probably get me an affirmative reply.

As far as having the gun out before running in (had you had one), if he doesn't see the need for deadly force, I don't think you should either in this case. I'd leave it be in the holster.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Okay, let me throw in a hypothetical here... and I can certainly see where this could happen...

The officer is on top of the guy he has in custody. He's trying to avoid confrontations with others while he keeps the BG under control. For some reason, he did NOT have handcuffs.

So let's say that while I was intervening here, and things had NOT gone well, say three or four come at me with a knife or a stick, etc. etc. - the officer is pre-occupied with his keeping control of BG #1, what THEN? I'm not much of a "fist-to-cuffs" fighter, and I'll openly admit that, so 4-5 guys on me would no doubt whoop my backside and perhaps attempt to take my gun or worse?
 
#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
At that time you are defending your life from immediate danger and the same reaction is called for as if the officer wasn't there, time to engage force with force.
I have had to assist two female officers before, this was before I had my CCW permit and when I lived in the Republic of Kalifornia. I was about 19 years old and I was driving down a residentail street in a not so great part of town. In a front yard I see a very large man walking around the front yard with a female officer hanging off his neck trying for a choke hold I guess??? The other female officer ( that's right two female officers in the same cruiser) was around the guys leg hitting him with a sap stick, looking back it was quite comical, the one around his neck had already pepper sprayed the guy but to no affect, he was literally dragging the two across the yard. I had my work buddy with me, we both agreed we needed to help. I stood back at the edge of the yard a good 20 feet and asked the officer if they would like some help. They both screamed back "Yes!!!!" My buddy and I were both good size young men at the time, and we tackled the guy like we were playing football. Hey!!! don't laugh, this was before I received any formal training, it got the guy down!!! Once he went down my buddy put his knee in the guys face while I helped the officer get his arms back to cuff him. It was all over in a couple minutes. They thanked us over and over again and we left. I suppose they must have gotten my license plate number because about 4-5 days later we received a thank you card from both officers in the mail. If you are going to intercede on a situation like this you better make darn sure the officer knows you are there trying to help, or you may end up recovering in the ICU!!!

NCH
 
#17 ·
Bottom line ? I have been that officer you speak of , I have depended on you and other folk like you to " keep them off my back " . You did fine , in fact more than you could be expected to . In fact you earned a " gimme " ( pm me because my definition is not pc nor maby appropriate ) lol . Suffice it to say you stepped in when you needed not , and frankly unless and untill pics are taken of you in bed with either a goat , a boy , or god forbid an under aged goat well your all good . all that matters here is that you stepped up . The RO may be a piece of work , and that dont matter . You helped and no one got a butt kickin in any fashon . you did good , this dont mean you get a pass but if someone recognises your name it may well mean that you dont set on a curb in cuffs explaining yourself at a later date .
 
#19 ·
Speak loudly and clearly. If there is a struggle and the perp and officer are doing the dirt dance, then you may have to shout it out several times before you get his attention.

Use your head here. The officer doesn't have a clue of your intentions. You know you are a good guy trying to help, but he doesn't.
 
#20 ·
Alright, now before you guys laugh, just hear me out for this situation only. I want to emphasize beforehand, that this idea of a Concealed Carry Badge - wearing it in the open, is silly - and most of all, what's the purpose identifying yourself to everyone that you're carrying?

But, in THIS type of situation, would approaching the officer while showing a badge and announcing your intent to help/asking if he/she needs help, perhaps would give them one little ounce of tension ease?

And obviously, like you guys have said and I totally agree, absolutely NEVER draw the gun unless it was immediately life threatening upon the officer or the yourself !!!!!
 
#25 ·
A lot of things could have gone wrong, but fortunately it didn't . What you did was very courageous. Your family was in the car and was safe. The one who needed help was the officer and you helped him. We need more people like you.

Many of us just think about ourself and our closest friends or family. But I could never just stand and watch while someone get beaten. It doesn't matter if I know him or not. He needs help.

You didn't know if you could handle the situation or if you get hurt but you stepped up. You still offered your help, that was very courageous and you probably saved that LEO from a beating or having to shoot them. :congrats:
 
#23 ·
For instance, what if this poor kid had been lying on the ground being beaten by two or three of these "thugs?" Obviously, call 911 is #1 priority. Next, do you try to intervene as I did or do you stand by and avoid getting yourself perhaps hurt as well? Tough one to answer. No perfect answer for sure!

Secondly, what if the LEO officer has been beaten to the point he finally gets to drawing his weapon. Suddenly, he sees me heading toward him with two boat ores in my hands. If he starts double tapping in order to save his life from a crowd of trash, what's going to stop him from thinking I'm coming after him as well?

I'M HAPPY IT WORKED OUT THE WAY IT DID. I'M HAPPY I DID WHAT I DID, AND WOULD DO IT AGAIN IF IN THAT SITUATION. I could not live with myself having known I fled from helping an officer in need. I'm happy the young man (LEO) is okay and still get a chuckle knowing I watched a 20-something year old whoop this 6+ foot, 250 pound + BG like a rented mule! :)
 
#28 ·
I don't see how anyone can say they would drive away. I am a woman and having been a Paramedic in a large Metro area.....I wouldn't have driven off.
I don't think I could sleep at night showing that kind of cowardice :gah:.....yeah....I know...."I had my family with me." Whatever lets you sleep at night, but how could you expect help if needed, if you make excuses for not helping others....especially a officer. You did a great job helping the officer......good for you. Sleep well, you deserve it.:congrats:
 
#29 ·
I wouldn't have driven off.

I don't think I could sleep at night showing that kind of cowardice
:tired: Be careful about labeling as "cowardice" the defense of one's family. Everyone does indeed have a differing level of commitment to family, particularly if they're on-scene. But obviously my suggesting you feel nothing towards yours simply because of your rationale would be going way too far. Caution is due.

... if you make excuses for not helping others...
My family is the one reason (not excuse) that trumps all others. If I can be reasonably assured they could defend themselves while I left to take responsibility for a situation gone sideways, that's one thing. If they were likely to get killed right along with me (in retribution by the 20 armed thugs), then what's the point?
 
#30 ·
I think I would have helped him get the guy in the car faster, so we could all exit the situation. Open the trunk, shove him in (dont' shut lid) ... drive off.... a mile down the road can pull him out and put him inside the car.
 
#33 ·
Rifle, Handgun, Baseball bat, it doesn't matter you better darn sure make sure that cop knows you are there to help and not another attacker or things could go wrong very quick. At least with a handgun it can be concealed until you convey this to the officer, if he simply see a guy with a rifle approaching he may shoot you before you have time to speak a word!! Most LEO's don't like civilians interveining unless they are really in a desperate situation.
NCH
 
#34 ·
Congratulations Sir!!!
Job well done!!! I'm sorry you had to go through the personal issues along with your decision to help...Ask your wife to reverse the situation and imagine if it was her surrounded? Awesome Job and again Sorry hope all is well with the wife now...
 
#35 ·
Well done, bgriffin.
I certainly can't add anything to the counsel already given, but thanks for sharing and giving us a chance to put ourselves in your shoes. If even 10 percent of our fellow citizens would become willing to make the decision you made, our nation would reverse course in a heartbeat! :35:
 
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