Pizza delivery

This is a discussion on Pizza delivery within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've been interested in making some extra cash in addition to my current job. Tomorrow there is a good chance I will get a pizza ...

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Thread: Pizza delivery

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Pizza delivery

    I've been interested in making some extra cash in addition to my current job. Tomorrow there is a good chance I will get a pizza delivery job. I know pizza men are big targets for robberies and while the company has a "no guns" policy I will still be carrying. My life over my job I always say. Is it justifiable to shoot a robber who is only after my money? Where do you draw the line? Armed robber, unarmed robber? Preventing your route of escape? I know there is a lot of money in pizza delivery, and I have concerns.

    Scenario: I am coming back from a delivery to my car and there is an seemingly unarmed guy who is leaning on my car and says "a little cash would be nice" as he points to the guys off in the corner of my eye. I notice 2 other guys with baseball bats behind the bushes. What would you do?

    Any tips to stay safe while delivering? I can't really choose where I go obviously...

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I would say, if you honestly feel your life is in danger then game on.

    Just be prepared to be fired as soon as you get back to the store (which seems like you have determined that already).
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    I would say, if you honestly feel your life is in danger then game on.

    Just be prepared to be fired as soon as you get back to the store (which seems like you have determined that already).
    Pretty much. I mean I've been carrying for some time now and the chances of me getting mugged, especially in this area are slim to nil. I hope it stays that way.

    I figure there are a lot of pizza men in this area and I really have not heard of a robbery. I just hope I'm not the lucky one

    Edit: and just for the record I already conceal a Kel-Tec P3AT at work now, i've never had an issue.

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    Member Array akhimark's Avatar
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    Would a reasonable and prudent person be in fear of immenent bodily harm?

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    Honestly I would re-evaluate how bad you need the extra cash. You already know the company doesn't allow carry, which could add to your woes if you ever have to use your firearm.

    Robbery is a violent crime, and the line is drawn when you seriously fear for your life.

    I'd probably look for a safer job, but that is coming from a grunt, so take it for what it is worth.
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    First, IANAL...

    If a robber is armed and threatening your life or limb, you can do whatever it takes to stop the threat even if the robber is mortally wounded as a result of your defense.

    In some states you are required to "retreat to the wall". In other words, you must try as best you can to avoid violence. In other states this is not required, just the threat is enough for you to take action. Check your state's laws on self-defense.

    Even if you are legally OK you may still be prosecuted and have to prove your assertions. You may also be sued by people close to the robber. Fighting either of these situations could prove costly in money and time, and there is always the possibility you may lose.

    I suggest getting a copy of Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme". Some of the information is dated, but the sections on the legal considerations of self-defense are excellent.

    Some of the most important things to remember if you find yourself in the aftermath of a bad situation is;
    1. YOU make the 911 call yourself as quickly as possible, and give as little detail as possible to get the police and/or EMT personnel there quickly.
    2. When the police arrive politely tell them that you will cooperate with them and answer their questions once your lawyer is present. DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE!!!!!!!

    Bobo
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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I'm a pizza jockey. I carry a gun.

    In that situation I would draw to a ready position and order them to leave me alone. Then call 911 and report as I drive away.

    Some tips:

    Never, ever park in the drive way. Always park on the street. Never leave your vehicle running.

    Carry two flashlights.

    If you get to an address and the porch light is burnt out, call the customer and have them come outside. Keep your flashlight low and illuminate their hands. Always, always watch their hands.

    Always look around you. Your head should be on a swivel. Illuminate both sides of the house as you drive by. Light up the corners of the house as you walk up. Listen for whispering, etc. Talk a little louder than normal at night (except the money stuff). Hi, how are you tonight?... Total comes to $16.83 please. There's your change...Thanks a lot, I appreciate it, have a great night.

    Do not flash the cash on the way back. Neighbors will look out their windows if someone is talking loud at night. Witnesses to anything are good.

    I keep the change money ("bank") in my right front pocket and the customer money (payments) in the left front pocket.

    Adhere to the company's money policy. Keep $20 change on you. 2-$5s and 10 singles. That's it. The policy where I work is no $50s or $100 unless it's within $20 of the total ($36.00 order is ok for a $50, because I give them $14 back-less than $20).

    Always make a money drop into the store. They should have a drop box.

    If possible, don't put a car topper on your vehicle. This makes your vehicle a target for all sorts of crap.

    If at any moment you feel unsafe, don't go there. Period.

    Dogs love pizza guys. I've had to shoot and kill a dog that rushed to attack me.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Member Array Hammurabi's Avatar
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    A few months ago a pizza delivery guy named James Spiers working for Pizza Hut in Des Moines had a gun drawn on him in an attempted robbery. In response he pulled out his gun (owned and carried within the law), shot the robber a bunch of times, and got away safely. As far as I can tell from news reports there was little or no time between when the danger presented itself and when bullets started flying.

    Pizza hut has a zero tolerance policy about carrying guns. James was immediately suspended and fired.

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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I'd rather be unemployed than dead.
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    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    PLEASE.......

    Immediately review the PA statutes that address the use of deadly force. Every state is different and as a cc licensee, it's your responsibility to understand them fully. Failing to do so, can cost you a heck of a lot more than a part-time job.....

    I'd also strongly encourage you to carry a less lethal alternative with you such as a good (I like Fox Labs) OC spray and at least one good flashlight.

    Stay safe, but make sure you stay legal too.....
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

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  12. #11
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I would say that Tubby45 has given some pretty sound advice.

    I am not one for pulling your pistol unless it is going to be used, but in the situation that you described, that is exactly what I would do. Aiming it directly at the guy leaning up against the car. I am sure he would be gone in a flash, and the other two ball players would be right behind or in front of him.

    I don't know what PA law is regarding retreat or whatever, so look it up. Here in Texas, well you all know this is Texas.

    Do what you have to keep yourself safe, and make a living for your family. If the pizza thing works for you, be aware, and do it well. It can be dangerous, but doesn't have to be dangerous if you use your head.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Is it justifiable to shoot a robber who is only after my money? Where do you draw the line?
    The money belongs to the pizza company that doesn't want you defending yourself. Are you going to put yourself in a potential world of legal troubles for them???

    Draw the line where you always do---if Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy of being killed or seriously injured present themselves. That is, if you reasonably perceive your life to be in danger, do what you feel is appropriate.

    Don't lift a finger just for the company.

    ETA: Bob O has a good point about being certain of your local laws, especially with regard to retreating. I don't expect that PA has a strong duty to retreat, but I certainly don't know that for a fact. Be sure!
    Last edited by kazzaerexys; July 29th, 2008 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Addition.
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  14. #13
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    Just like other anytime, your life had better be in danger before you do anything with your gun, and you better be able to articulate just why you did what you did.

    Tubby gave you great advice, I'll expand just a little bit drawing from my experience as a "jockey" a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away;

    Carry a cell phone, aside from the obvious reasons, its super valuable tool for delivery purposes. I even suggest getting a cheap prepaid deal, because you don't want to get calls for pizza orders on your regular phone.

    A good flash light is a must; I suggest a large one for the car and one for your pocket.

    Wear cargo pants if possible.

    Hiking boots are really nice... you'll find out why soon enough.

    I'm not usually an advocate of pepper spray, but a decent can could be very handy and save you a lot of grief.

    If you don't know the area you're delivering to, LEARN IT! This will save you time, and make you a lot more money. See if you can get a hold of a copy of the local F.D.'s "map book". Its worth its weight in gold to the delivery man.

    Be super weary of apt. complexes, especially government funded ones. Get in, and get out. Put stuff away and prep for next delivery down the road.

    Keep a spare car key on you at all times. Trust me, it will be handy.

    make those drops each time you head back to the shop. Remember, its not your money! Its simply not worth killing or getting killed over.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #14
    Member Array buzzgum's Avatar
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    Having been a jockey in my youth for 3 years, I had my fair share of 'encounters' that I was able to safely retreat from. My last year working there, I did carry a .380 with me (this was in CA and no I did not have a CCW permit). Luckily I worked for a mom and pop pizza joint and the boss carried and had no problem with me carrying and neither did his business partner.

    I had 2 pizza's stolen out of my car while delivering to a house. I have been shadowed by an unsavory looking fella while delivering in an apartment complex at night once, luckily I gave him the slip and made a hasty get away. I have delivered to drunkards who felt generous enough to offer me beer and condems as a tip (declined), I had some wack job high on dust confront me in my car while I was waiting to make a left turn at an intersection...he was convinced that I was following him. In all situations, I was able to avoid escalation and retreat.

    Just keep your SA set on 11 and follow the advice of some of the other posters. It could save your life and help you avoid having to use your weapon.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Is it justifiable to shoot a robber who is only after my money? Where do you draw the line? Armed robber, unarmed robber?
    How do you know your money is the only goal? You can't possibly know this.

    My line: if faced with a lethal threat and my life is in danger, the game is on ... and I will survive it if I am at all able. That means acting immediately, forcefully and capably toward my own survival. That's irrespective of whether some lib-noodle will come down later and claim the bugger was unarmed, or wore green, or said he only wanted money, or whatever. A lethal threat is just that. Act, or not.

    I believe you'll find that your state's laws grant that your freedom to satisfactorily handle a situation in this manner is upheld.

    That all being said, consider what Tubby's saying. Knowing what you know about the obvious increased risks, are you still willing to step into the quagmire? There are other flexible alternatived that don't require being alone in the darker, bleaker sections of town armed with pepperoni, olives and breath mints.

    One option I did, when younger and when needing a fill-in type job with crazy hours: temporary agency. I was able to fill as much or little of my time, often with nutty hours. Worked very well for me, and many of the jobs I did have held me in good stead across a career.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; July 29th, 2008 at 03:33 PM. Reason: spellin'
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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