He/they - armed/unarmed? Timing?

This is a discussion on He/they - armed/unarmed? Timing? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Despite our best efforts at alertness we find ourselves confronted, let's say on public property - parking lot maybe. Escape is not practicable. Whether one ...

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Thread: He/they - armed/unarmed? Timing?

  1. #1
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    He/they - armed/unarmed? Timing?

    Despite our best efforts at alertness we find ourselves confronted, let's say on public property - parking lot maybe. Escape is not practicable.

    Whether one BG or two - is not so much the question, as to whether there are weapons, as yet unseen. Verbal threats are delivered and tension is high but - do we wait to see weapons or do we act in a pre-emptive manner? If so - just how much?

    Do we move hand toward piece but not show it - at what point might actual brandishing be either legal or even sensible?

    This is a vague question with no specifics to guide your comments - but the crux is - how to decide whether weapons or not and how long to wait to act before possible presentation of those. Remember - threat level feels high but nothing has as yet been done to harm you.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Depends on the threat level, some drunken slob you just smile and agree with what ever drivel they are spueing. Several gang banger's I'm sideways, right hand on grip, left on the M6X defensive posture indicating ready for imediate action, retreat or draw what ever is necessary to defend my family and self. There is no brandishing If I've pulled and mounted the tac it's drop dead serious time. Deadly threat will be met in kind.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    Regardless of the evidence of weapons, if there are more than one attacker then you are entitiled to escalation of weaponry. If you allow these two to get their hands on you, you will be overwhelmed. JUst as a 100 lb. woman is justified in deadly force against 220 lb. linebacker. You may to justify your case by explaintion of fear, intimidation and the fact that these fellows threatened you and refused to allow you to leave in piece. Of course this does not mean pull your piece and fire, only if they get within striking distance. Best of you keep moving so that they stay lined up one behind the other. In this fashion you have both in front of you and only one BG to deal with at a time.

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    Alot depends on your/their size, space ect. If you are in fear of your life do what ya gotta. First rule of PD work, (and it applies here) is come home at the end of the day.

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    Member Array Chad's Avatar
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    Depends entirely on if I'm alone or have family with me.

    By myself...I'm 51, 6', 155lbs with several discs in my back that are toast. So except for surprise I'm not very effective at hand-to-hand.
    If I'm confronted aggressively as you suggest, I hope I would let it go so far as to even get knocked on my ass once before I drew...as long as I retained access to my gun. I'd prefer to have someone arrested for assault than kill them if I had the option. This assumes, of course, that no weapons appear, as well as my feelings of the situation.
    If, hopefully, I read the situation correctly and my life isn't threatened, cuts, bruises and pride all heal...much easier than going through the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. And there is always the possibility of de-escalating the situation...which is the only confrontation experience I actually know how I would react to, because I've been there.

    If I have family with me...chances are the aggressor will have made a very poor choice and it might cost him his life.
    There are limited actions I might take to de-escalate, but they would be after I had drawn my gun.

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    Remember here - I mentioned that escape is impracticable - perhaps not meaning impossible but very unlikely as an option. Therefore we have to stand our ground. De-escalation - sure, if it were possible is fine - but again I guess I am seeing this as not likely.

    I like Chad am not superman anymore and any major physical fight is not something I wish to wait for. I also if with family will be much more likely to ensure a solid defence - on my own would wait that bit longer maybe - much being down to distance between parties. I'll only allow so close, before bets are likely to be off.

    As always, circumstances would determine events - which would include one's summation of the opposition re type, characteristic - in fact a profiling if you will. Hard tho to know if right call would be made in all situations of this type.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    All depends on the terrain.

    The advantage of a handgun in the coat pocket can be seen here.

    You should have set mental triggers when you went into the situation.

    WARN! STOP! GET BACK! As you retreat as far as possible.

    Do not let yourself be flanked.

    It is not the time to rethink decisions, it is the time to put premade decisions into action.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

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    Member Array Chad's Avatar
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    One thing I consider here is that if I'm on my back on the ground it looks better as a position to have to shoot from to a jury.
    The bruises are well worth the result.

    Training, in my opinion, must take in to account all the threats...our legal system can be a threat we need to consider.

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    Member Array Brian45's Avatar
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    Situation

    Confronted, escape not practical, verbal threats(if I think there it very serious), one or more BGs.

    Be aggressive, order them away, that may convince them that you do not plan to be a victim or a easy target. I will not let the BG or BG2 close in or flank. If I can be reached I am at a big disadvantage, a knife is very easily concealed behind a hand pointed backward. A gun can appear pretty fast. If I feel truly threatened I will draw and give them the choice. If they run away they have made the wise choice. If they produce a weapon or come at me I will have to assume they have a weapon and they have made the wrong choice. In this case I would think once you show you are in command of the situation the descalation will happen in a hurry. Alway stay in charge of what is happening, even if the other guy does not know your in charge.

    Yes this may be brandishing if the outcome is favorable and the BGs leave, I am alive and in one piece. Hey, they made the threats.
    NRA Life Member

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    Brian - some good and logical thinking there - certainly I agree re staying '' in charge'' - seeing as they started things. Mind you, always that thought, after the event - how things would go down if it was 2 on to one re relating events.

    Sorta seems easy for two BG's to make things sound like we were the aggressor. Guess only way to find out would be to experience such a situation!

    I do know tho - I might appear (for a while) to be intimidated but - time will come when that ceases - even if the question mark over how well armed he/they might be.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Member Array Brian45's Avatar
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    P95Carry

    I may have given a specific answer to a vague question. In any bad situation like this there will be a lot of "what ifs". The situation will be very dynamic and probably happen very fast. The ideal end result will be the BGs running away. If they try to make me appear the aggressor later on, so be it. If I draw a weapon I had a darn good reason and I will be making a report ASAP. The bottom line is I will be alive and unharmed to defend myself. Odds are I will be much more believable than some dirtbag(s) that would threaten me in a parking lot.
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    I would add to Brian's discourse to call police inmediately and request their presence at the scene. When they arrive, give them a full description of the BGs and what happened. Two reasons: 1) they are a threat that need to be taken out of the streets. 2) In case they call the cops themselves and anonimously say there is a nutjob with a gun and give your description and location.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    I would add to Brian's discourse to call police inmediately and request their presence at the scene. When they arrive, give them a full description of the BGs and what happened. Two reasons: 1) they are a threat that need to be taken out of the streets. 2) In case they call the cops themselves and anonimously say there is a nutjob with a gun and give your description and location.
    Situation dictates, might not have the time(to call and give location and description). Depends on distance of BG's when contact was made! Let faces it, police have to prioritize their calls. Has any one ever been inside of a squad car when calls come in(on mobile computer or radio), a lot of time(even 2 minutes, don't seem that long) can go by. That time(let's say 2 minutes) from the time you call 911(it could take you 2 minutes to get the dispatch operator and explain the situation), BG's could be closing in. I'm not trying to state that calling for help is bad/wrong/ idea but it could help distract you. The distance between your would-be threat(s) will be the biggest factor of time to react!

    Remember you are responding to their actions, you are meeting their force. So they(BG's) know what their intension are, you don't! The closer they get, the more at risk you are(doesn't matter weapon or not) What would I do, "keep it simple, stay alive at all cost". What actions would I take, I don't know because the situation will dictate!
    We had a LEO murdered in his squad car(guy just walked up to him, pulled out a gun and fired). The officer never had a chance! The only way for me is to consider everyone(anyone, 13 and older) a "threat" if I don't know them(especially when they get close to my "outer bubble").
    I know some of you are saying to yourself, "13 years old a threat".
    My buddy was a teacher's aid at a middle school(In-the-Hood) and had a kid/student(around 14 or 15, I know he wasn't 16) that was 6'2-4" 230 lbs. My friend saw this kid bench press over 280 lbs and eat 3 big plates of food at a pinic. Now amagine you are a police officer and you get a call across the radio "fight at a middle school"(In-the-hood) and you show up and find that this kid/student was involved in this fight. Is he a threat? Also keep in mind that street gangs recruit kids around this age(even younger), acts of violence are required to join and remain in the gang!
    Train how you Fight
    Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast!
    "Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing." Murphy's Combat Law

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    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    This kinda adds another drill to my training.
    or adds a "stop" to a current drill.
    1, uncover gun.
    2, grab gun.
    3, draw gun.
    4, point and (potentially) fire gun.

    this would put the "stop" between #2 & #3.
    not to draw but "make ready" to draw.

    i know with the way i have been training myself, my steps 1 & 2 are pretty fast and obvious as to what i'm doing. maybe a little less "obvious" as to my intent could be used in this scenario. maybe a "slow" turn (strongside) away from threat, and grasp gun would be less obvious.
    brandishing is a tough call. do you want to wait for them to draw on you? be it a knife, gun, bat, whatever? or be of the preemptive strike mindset and have yers out and ready so they know what they are getting into if they decide to continue?
    i agree with, after the fact, getting yer side to the authorities first would be wise. during the confrontation, no way, no time.
    man, tough scenarios here. thats why i enjoy this forum so much.
    makes me think.
    also, just read the lawyer post earlier...hhhhmmmmm. i think some research on that front could be helpful should the SHTF someday for me. the NRA lawyer thing is helpful to remember also.
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

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    Chris,
    You've hit on one of my major nightmare scenarios - being confronted by two or three possible BGs, but they don't do enough for me to present deadly force. They just keep talking and slowly closing the gap, maybe asking for directions or spare change. They separate and begin the "encirclement". NOW THAT'S SCARY!!!!

    We can draw our gun (or not), act aggressive, and what ever but when the police arrive, it's going to come down to my story, their story, and possibly some distant witnesses. If I act aggressive they can claim I provoked them and even threatened them just because they asked for some change. And, if I've been aggressive, witnesses will very likely note that and not have any idea what actually happened.

    If I feel forced to make a "preemptive defensive strike", I am the aggressor. Can I prove I was acting in self-defense? I don't know. But it's likely I'd get an expensive chance to prove my case in court.

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