Undercover bust in front of me

This is a discussion on Undercover bust in front of me within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I work undercover and usually do interdiction stops one day a month or so. Even though we employ undercover vehicle, we do our best to ...

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Thread: Undercover bust in front of me

  1. #16
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    I work undercover and usually do interdiction stops one day a month or so. Even though we employ undercover vehicle, we do our best to have a marked vehicle actually stop the vehicle. In the rare event that this doesn't happen and we make the stop with a UC vehicle we all put on "jump out" bullet proof vests, with POLICE written on them very clearly.

    I'm not saying that Police can't stop vehicles without vests and idea but it obviously could cause the types of problems that are mentioned above.

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  3. #17
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    Chances are you would be the one getting hurt!! The cops make mistakes, they are human, not saying what the proper action would be and I pray none of us ever have to be in a situation like that. But I tend to think a group of officers, who have a game plan to take you down, are going to have the jump on you and going for a weapon would be very foolish. Like I said I hope none of us are ever placed in that scenario.

    NCH
    I don't doubt that it would be ugly. I don't have so much faith in my prowess to think I would stand against LEO and be the lone survivor. I just think it would be a bad day for everyone if a bunch, or one, civilian clothed LEO jumped out of a car ahead of me and swarmed back toward me like that with nothing but a lanyard with a badge on it and gun in hand. I know my attention would be focused upon the gun and that I would go into a defensive mode thinking it was a carjacking.

    I pray for everyone's sake that this kind of mistake doesn't happen to anyone. No good could come from it.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  4. #18
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    It is very important for officers who are undercover to be very vocal about who they are when they want to go overt with guns out. They should announce "POLICE, POLICE, POLICE, DON'T MOVE" or "I'm a Police Officer I need to talk to you" or something to that effect. However it isn't a perfect situation, because the officer may not be believed(which is where the jump out ID vests give the officer more credibility), or the officers may forget to announce who they are.

    Forgetting may sound like a stupid thing to do and it is. However when I first stopped wearing a uniform it took me a long time to realize that other people didn't know that I am cop. I had to tell and show them.

    One time I watched two security guards fighting with a combative drunk subject at an event that I was working out of uniform. The security guards were not doing a good enough job of controlling the subject, so I jumped in, grabbed a leg and got the guy on his back. Something knocked into me from behind and I realized that a third security guard was trying to push me off and strike at me. Luckily my partner was right their to get the security officer off of me and explain. Bone head move on my part, but jumping in seemed like a very practical and natural thing to do. Good thing my partner was their to help. I never said I was perfect, but it all worked out and we all laughed about it. No harm no foul. I guess.

  5. #19
    Member Array crankinNM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Why would you have drawn to "stop the action"?
    The persons be they cops or not were not keyed on you...and you are not a cop thus not warranted to go stopping any such action.

    - Janq
    Janq,

    I tend to agree with you with a but.........
    I took a CCW course where they taught to help if you could if someone was in serious harms way.....

    What I saw was a woman with a drawn gun making an agressive move on fellow citizen..........

    The ifs go like this....if she starts shooting, any bullet that I stop her from delivering into her target could save a life............Visions of grandure?

    Probably.
    Scenerio's that they teach us to "prethink" in CCW courses, yes.

  6. #20
    Member Array mtnclimber's Avatar
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    The problem with undercover police arresting people is that they often dress like the thugs. I have often heard lectures to school kids saying that if they dress like thugs, people may actually act as if you are a thug. If I saw a "thug" going after someone, I might stop it.

    The same goes for no-knock raids. Many of these are based on information from crimminal informants and are not very reliable and are not for imminent threat of violence. Often these are drug/evidence related. No disrespect for normal LEO, but any death from a wrongful no-knock raid should put all involved LEO, administration and informants on trial for murder. Just the same as an unlawful CCW shooting. And why do these LEO like to kill people's pets even when it is the wrong address?

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Some times not looking like the police keeps us alive.

  8. #22
    Member Array mtnclimber's Avatar
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    I understand the undercover angle. I have known several under cover cops and appreciate the benefit they give to law enforcement. I just think it places undercover cops at risk to legitimate self defense shooting if they participate in arrests or home invasions. I think there was a LEO on LEO shooting in Los Angeles last week due to mistaken identity. If they dress and act like a scumbag and pull out a gun what would a reasonable person do? If you know you are not involved in crime and your door gets busted down in the wee hours of the morning by black-clothed, mask wearing "home Invaders" what would you do?

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnclimber View Post
    If you know you are not involved in crime and your door gets busted down in the wee hours of the morning by black-clothed, mask wearing "home Invaders" what would you do?
    Not to be smart, but most hide in a corner and piddle in their drawers. It happens so fast, none of the John Wayne heroics that people think they will do actually happen, provided the raid team is skilled.
    Ugly things happen from time to time, but given the amount of raids that happen daily, the ratio is tiny.

    Now that I've jumped right in this mess, could someone please tell me what this has to do with the topic of the thread?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    In today's world, police administrators need to modify procedures keeping in mind the large number of Americans who are getting ccw permits. Many police agencies have not yet adjusted to the fact there are many armed law abiding citizens on the street. It is more critical than ever that plain clothed officers identify themselves. Not everyone an LEO comes in contact with that has a firearm is a bad guy.

    I backed up our plain clothed guys on numerous occasions, including one with the Feds early one Sunday morning. When we went in the Feds wanted to make sure that there was a uniform showing.

    I also had to save a couple of plain clothed guys butts one afternoon cause they couldn't wait 30 secs for me in a marked vehicle to make the stop for them. It almost got ugly.

    There is a real need for police to conduct plain clothed and undercover clothed operations. However, there comes a time when waiting for a marked vehicle is the smart thing to do. Sometimes it's nothing more than tombstone courage on the part of the non-uniformed folks.

    Where I live there are three rather close intersections. Within probably 300 feet of my house there are three houses with and address of 5304. Should a swat team get the right house number but wrong street, the results could be ugly.

    Also keep in mind the BG's are starting to impersonate LEO's more and more and more. Read a story recently of BG's masqurading as Federal agents to gain access to homes in the Houston area.

    Non-unifored LEO's need to keep in mind that we don't know who they are any more than they know who we are.

  11. #25
    Member Array mtnclimber's Avatar
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    Now that I've jumped right in this mess, could someone please tell me what this has to do with the topic of the thread?
    The topic had to do with undercover police conducting legitimate actions, but due to undercover attire they may look like the bad guys to a CCW holder. It is a bad situation for CCW holders. Best if formal police arrests are done by uniformed officers.

  12. #26
    Member Array crankinNM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnclimber View Post
    The topic had to do with undercover police conducting legitimate actions, but due to undercover attire they may look like the bad guys to a CCW holder. It is a bad situation for CCW holders. Best if formal police arrests are done by uniformed officers.
    And there are a lot of marked car Police in my neighborhood. Why would this undercover officer blow her cover like that? I was trying to look it up on the internet to see who got busted, and why, but could not find it...........Whole thing seemed reckless to me. To tell you the truth though, I would not recognize her in a lineup.....all I saw was:" lady with gun getting ready to use it".

    I'm not the best witness, because the details are often such a blurr.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankinNM View Post
    A lady hops out of the sedan blocking forward motion of the other sedan with a drawn Glock 21 hand gun.
    How do you know it was a Glock 21?

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    This sounds to me like just another reckless police action! I have heard it stated by several LEOs that when they turn on the lights that is the place they have chosen to stop the vehicle.

    Now they deem it necessary to have guns drawn for their safety but never take into account your safety. But yet they call themselves professional. If shots got fired they would as typical empty their guns toward the vehicle and if you were in the back ground. Well…

    And what really gets me is we take this crap and do nothing about it we as good sheep don’t want to make our keepers angry at us. It’s not like this is an isolated incident.
    When are the decent cops going to start enforcing the law on their own?

  15. #29
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "Why would this undercover officer blow her cover like that?"

    "Plain clothes" does not equal "under cover."
    God, country, family.

  16. #30
    Member Array Eirerogue's Avatar
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    Having spent my LE career in plainclothes and many years in the 70's looking very scruffy, I fully understand your concerns.

    There are times when even UC and back up officers/agents HAVE to make an arrest. In the case of narcotics, it could be a delivery of drugs, a buy-bust gone bad, etc.

    In NYC in the 70's, we used to wear headbands. This was before raid jackets, tactical holsters and all the gear you see today. Every morning, the drug task force "color code" was broadcast to all Precincts and announced at all role calls. We changed the color daily.

    Now, it's common to TRY to have a uniformed officer present as a visual LE presence, but not always possible. I've arrested many people in cars being "boxed" by front and rear vehicles and seized alot of drugs.

    Safety is always a consideration, but sometimes arrests and self-defense actions require a UC or plainclothes officer/agent to break cover. They are also trained to ID themselves to all around and if possible, have some VISUAL announcement of their LE status.

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